Lubbers

[Dave]

So I got an idea the other night. Here in Fl we have lubber grasshoppers (Romalea guttata) that are really big. Now I know feeding wild caught prey is a bad idea, but what do you guys think about captive hatched lubbers?

My idea is to catch gravid females, have them lay their eggs, release the females and raise the young for T food.

Any ideas/concerns/experiences/CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms? Be gentle, it's just an idea!

-Dave

 

[Sathane]

What?! What are you thinking?! Bad! Bad T Owner!!! Blah Blah Blah...

There. Now that we've gotten that out of the way early, hopefully no one feels the need to repeat it.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

That might work but I'm not 100% sure. If the female was immune to the pesticides she was exposed to (which she would most likely be if she was alive) then there is the possibility that her eggs may contain trace amounts of the toxin.

I was thinking of trying this at one time. I would have let the female lay a clutch and fed a control group of Ts (probably G. rosea slings) the offspring and monitored for any effects.

 

[xhexdx]

From what I've read, if you're going to use captive bred offspring from wild-caught parents, it's best to raise the first generation and breed them, then start feeding second generation.

--Joe

 

[Sathane]

This would be the safer way to do it.

From what I've read, if you're going to use captive bred offspring from wild-caught parents, it's best to raise the first generation and breed them, then start feeding second generation.

--Joe

 

[MizM]

From what I've read, if you're going to use captive bred offspring from wild-caught parents, it's best to raise the first generation and breed them, then start feeding second generation.

--Joe

This is what I would recommend.

 

[natebugman]

I could be mistaken, but don't lubber grasshoppers produce toxins as a defense strategy? Birds have been known to vomit after eating them. I would be extremely wary of feeding these to my pets.

 

[reverendsterlin]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN132

Defensive Characteristics
Eastern lubber grasshoppers possess a variety of abilities to defend themselves. Their bright color pattern is a warning to predators that the lubber contains toxic substances. Indeed, there are several records attributing the demise of individual birds to failure to exercise caution when selecting prey items. Also small mammals such as opossums have been known to vomit violently after ingesting a lubber, and to remain ill for several hours. However, shrikes are reported to catch and kill lubbers.

If the red, yellow, and black coloration fails to keep a predator at bay, then the lubber may secrete a foamy spray from the thoracic region (the portion of the body where the legs and wings are attached.) This spray consists of a number of compounds, some of which, are irritants. This bubbly froth is accompanied by a relatively loud, frightful hissing sound. The insect contracts the abdomen to force air out of the spiracles along with the defensive secretion. The sound is produced as the spray is being forced out of these tiny holes in the thorax called spiracles. Eastern lubbers, like most all grasshoppers, can also regurgitate recently consumed plant material. This regurgitant is mostly liquid and has a dark brown color. This is commonly referred to as 'tobacco spit.' The tobacco spit is partially digested food material along with some semi-toxic compounds from the insect's crop region. This substance can easily stain clothing.


bad idea to use these for feeders it seems.

 

[Sathane]

In light of new information, I wouldn't feed these guys at all.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN132

Defensive Characteristics
Eastern lubber grasshoppers possess a variety of abilities to defend themselves. Their bright color pattern is a warning to predators that the lubber contains toxic substances. Indeed, there are several records attributing the demise of individual birds to failure to exercise caution when selecting prey items. Also small mammals such as opossums have been known to vomit violently after ingesting a lubber, and to remain ill for several hours. However, shrikes are reported to catch and kill lubbers.

If the red, yellow, and black coloration fails to keep a predator at bay, then the lubber may secrete a foamy spray from the thoracic region (the portion of the body where the legs and wings are attached.) This spray consists of a number of compounds, some of which, are irritants. This bubbly froth is accompanied by a relatively loud, frightful hissing sound. The insect contracts the abdomen to force air out of the spiracles along with the defensive secretion. The sound is produced as the spray is being forced out of these tiny holes in the thorax called spiracles. Eastern lubbers, like most all grasshoppers, can also regurgitate recently consumed plant material. This regurgitant is mostly liquid and has a dark brown color. This is commonly referred to as 'tobacco spit.' The tobacco spit is partially digested food material along with some semi-toxic compounds from the insect's crop region. This substance can easily stain clothing.


bad idea to use these for feeders it seems.

 

[Dave]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN132

Defensive Characteristics
Eastern lubber grasshoppers possess ...


bad idea to use these for feeders it seems.

Yes. I found this same info before I started the thread. I'm wondering now if this defense mechanism only effects vertebrates, as apposed to inverts. Also, I understand lubbers only reproduce one gen. per year. Second hatched generation sounds like a great idea to rid any traces of toxins, so I guess this project would take at least a year and a half, realistically, before offering to any controlled group of Ts to find out if the defense effects inverts.
I guess you could feed in the first gen. but if something does go wrong, you really wouldn't know if it were due to environmental toxins, or the lubbers natural defense.

Definitely a project worth pursuing for someone with the right amount of space and time, IMO!

 

[Sathane]

And a surplus of Ts to experiment with.

Definitely a project worth pursuing for someone with the right amount of space and time, IMO!

 

[BrynWilliams]

Possibly something to be considered long term I guess as a bit of variety. Assuming of course that they are not T toxic.

However, with the reproduction rate that you've mentioned being quite slow (once per year) surely the amount of input required would outweigh the few you got in the end?

 

[Dave]

Possibly something to be considered long term I guess as a bit of variety. Assuming of course that they are not T toxic.

However, with the reproduction rate that you've mentioned being quite slow (once per year) surely the amount of input required would outweigh the few you got in the end?

Well, there is one thing I forgot to mention, I read that each female can produce up to 150 eggs per year. Three sets of 50.
so:

20 females caught times 150 (ideally, of course) = 3000

1500 (assuming half are female) times 150 = 225,000

So you could potentially have a base number of at least 100,000
to start the colony. Space would be a big consideration, though.

 

[Dave]

And a surplus of Ts to experiment with.

LOL






"la dee da dee da minimum post requirement"

 

[BrynWilliams]

This changes things somewhat here's hoping they're non toxic.

Well, there is one thing I forgot to mention, I read that each female can produce up to 150 eggs per year. Three sets of 50.
so:

20 females caught times 150 (ideally, of course) = 3000

1500 (assuming half are female) times 150 = 225,000

So you could potentially have a base number of at least 100,000
to start the colony. Space would be a big consideration, though.

 

[xhexdx]

It is an interesting idea; Dave, did you search through the insects forum to see if this has been attempted before? If it hasn't, are you willing to give it a shot? I'd be quite interested to know what the results are, and I plan on still being around in a couple years should you have any results at that point.

--Joe

 

[cacoseraph]

well, i believe that there is another species of locust used quite a bit in euroland as a feeder


i maybe could figure out if these particular ones would be bad or not, but that might be stretching the limits of my abilities and i would need Bryn to check my work =P


i have really really wanted to get a local species of grasshopper type thing as a feeder... i really want to find one that can go swarm mode, like some of the african species can!

 

[Dave]

To be honest, Joe, I'm just toying with the idea right now. I will have to do a lot more research before I attempt it. Which I plan to do for fun . I still need to find out:
-space requirements
-feeding the lubbers
-laws regarding them
-where to collect them (I may already have a place, though)
-full husbandry requirements
-how much maintenance is involved
-all other areas of research (which I need to research to find out what I
need to research!)
-etc...

I'm open to it right now, but once I get all the facts I'll make a decision based on feasibility.

 

[BrynWilliams]

Hey now, I've only ever been nice. I haven't even commented on this topic yet. I have much respect for your knowledge as it's generally right on the button.

well, i believe that there is another species of locust used quite a bit in euroland as a feeder
i maybe could figure out if these particular ones would be bad or not, but that might be stretching the limits of my abilities and i would need Bryn to check my work =P

As far as locusts go my LPS sells them in droves for all the reptile keepers, they're amazingly colourful (blue/orange patchy colour as juvies then yellow with other colours as adults). They get big (like 4 inches long max size i've seen in there). I can ask next time I swing by what species they are because they seem to have no probs culturing them to all sizes.

Makes me laugh when you pick up a box and they all go off like popcorn.

 

[Dave]

Hey now, I've only ever been nice. I haven't even commented on this topic yet. I have much respect for your knowledge as it's generally right on the button.



As far as locusts go my LPS sells them in droves for all the reptile keepers, they're amazingly colourful (blue/orange patchy colour as juvies then yellow with other colours as adults). They get big (like 4 inches long max size i've seen in there). I can ask next time I swing by what species they are because they seem to have no probs culturing them to all sizes.

Makes me laugh when you pick up a box and they all go off like popcorn.

Any keeping requirement advice from the LPS would be appreciated as well, because it sounds like those are similar in size to the lubbers.

 

[BrynWilliams]

I'll give them a call tomorrow or pop in after work if I have time, will see what I can dig up. Just from what I've seen they come in the same boxes as the crickets, plastic container, some eggboxing.

What to feed them I'd have to find out for you