Looking for advice - Poecilotheria

[conipto]

On the topic at hand:
I almost hate to get into this, but personally, I've been forced to give up mine, and this does impact me quite a bit. You can argue the semantics of the words "Medically significant" until you're blue in the face. Bottom line, we all know what it means. Dangerous. I found Poecilotheria spp. fun to keep, usually very visible, and quite attractive. I knew the risks involved when I got into them. It's only a recent amount of legal trouble involving things like hysteria, and explotation of facts that forced me to give them up in the first place.

I have to echo alot of the statements already presented on the board, first of all Gary's considering them "Potentially dangerous". That's the exact phrase I would use, and one that's hard to deny. I can't imagine too many people still thinking ALL of the hype is BS.

So, in short, I don't think it a great idea to over or under exaggerate the danger of having them around, but I really have a problem with people screaming and yelling at others that they shouldn't keep these animals. I think anyone, whether they have children, pets, allergies - whatever, that feels they are mature and capable enough to keep them, should not be made to feel like some irresponsible jackass everytime they pose a question about one. Alot of people on this board are starting to sound like overzealous politicians about this, and I, for one am just about tired of hearing it.


Martin - I'd really like to know more about the urticating hair hypersensitivity. I've heard it in the past, and would like to find out just how much exposure it takes for people to get like that. I still have only ever had one 'itching' feeling from all the NW tarantulas I've handled, but many a time I hear more experienced keepers telling me that it gets worse in time. I followed that link to the German web page, but would you or someone else mind explaining more about it in English? We could start another thread about it if you'd like..

Bill

 

[minax]

Originally posted by Phillip
I repeat as I have done so many times before NO ONE HAS EVER DIED FROM A T BITE.

Phil

I have to disagree with this statement for this reason. You should be saying ," No one has died from a T bite, in recorded medical history. That does not mean it has not happened, only it has not been documented in the western medical world. This carries alot of weight, but there is plenty of un-documented fatalities from certain species, which are not common killers of humans. Killer Whales being an example. I have heard most of my life, that a killer whale has never killed a human. But, many years ago, there was indeed a documented case of a woman getting killed by one, off the East coast. Before this, it was thought not possible. And I know you have heard the anecdotal story of the young girl killed by a poke in India. Not proven...........but who has made a huge effort to investigate it? When people in Africa or India in a poverty stricken village get killed, we don't take much notice,in the Western world no matter what the cause. I agree, most people do not handle pain well, but to say every person who has a bad reaction to pokes, is just a sissy, is generalizing too much. A bad reaction, and serious consequences are totally possible, and has probably happened in the past, though undocumented medically, at this point.

 

[MrFeexit]

It's just like any allergen, I never used to have spring time allergies and once I started getting them they get a bit worse every year. I went from an itchy nose 15 years ago to eyes that I want to rip out cuz they itch so bad. Our bodies build up responses to what ever we are allergic to and subsequent exposures tend to worsen them. I am theorizing the same effect happens with T hairs. NOW the first person that asks for my research note gets a bop in the nose. This is all my observation and I am a builder not a scientist.

 

[esmoot]

This is a quote by Rick West in reply to my question about someone telling me about a death they "heard" about.

"All reliable world medical records searched have revealed not
one human death from the bite of a tarantula (theraphosidae)
spider ... that person is wrong."

Don't try and post internet storys or hearsay. Don't compare t's to Killer Whales. Why try and start trouble when the facts are known? If Rick West says it I'll belive him not internet fairytales.

Originally posted by minax
I have to disagree with this statement for this reason. You should be saying ," No one has died from a T bite, in recorded medical history. That does not mean it has not happened, only it has not been documented in the western medical world. This carries alot of weight, but there is plenty of un-documented fatalities from certain species, which are not common killers of humans. Killer Whales being an example. I have heard most of my life, that a killer whale has never killed a human. But, many years ago, there was indeed a documented case of a woman getting killed by one, off the East coast. Before this, it was thought not possible. And I know you have heard the anecdotal story of the young girl killed by a poke in India. Not proven...........but who has made a huge effort to investigate it? When people in Africa or India in a poverty stricken village get killed, we don't take much notice,in the Western world no matter what the cause. I agree, most people do not handle pain well, but to say every person who has a bad reaction to pokes, is just a sissy, is generalizing too much. A bad reaction, and serious consequences are totally possible, and has probably happened in the past, though undocumented medically, at this point.

 

[kellygirl]

Geez, this thread could've gone a completely different direction if Arboreal had merely taken the time to look at the number of posts Ralph has on this forum or maybe glance at his signature. Or, oh wait! Maybe s/he could've glanced at Ralph's profile and seen that he was born in 1963. Ralph has been posting here for awhile, apparently has a large collection, is NOT a newbie to the hobby, and is plenty old enough to make his own decisionsand regarding his tarantulas without being met with a self-righteous harangue about who should and shouldn't own Poecilotheria species. Guess AR's caught that skimming disease too, eh?

And Ralph, as for a good Pokie species, I typically hear of people getting P. ornata and P. regalis as beginners. If you have the funds for it, I suggest P. rufilata for looks and size. I, however, have no experience with Poecs.... YET! Good luck finding a Poec that suits you and post pictures when you can, please!

kellygirl

 

[Phillip]

Yeah the killer whale comparison is a tad out there. After all if you want to go that route cows can be lethal even blue whales who knows perhaps a crazed dolphin could tear you up pretty bad as well.

As far as people having a bad reaction being sissies... certainly not all accounts are overembelished but I would be willing to bet the majority are. Some folks on the other hand could very well have a bad reaction just as some folks can have a bad reaction to bees. ( yes I know different venom ) My point is no one tries to make bees out to be something the vast majority needs to fear why simple because most people suffer very little effect from them. The same is true with Ts. When you start to label swelling and discomfort as a serious condition then you are truly stretching the definition of serious.

Phil

 

[Phillip]

On the hypersensitivity to the hairs developing over time.... while I have certainly not done any studies on the subject I have heard about it and seen the effects from a few individuals. A local guy that comes to the show monthly gave up all his Brachy due to that reason alone. At 1st they didn't bother him but after a few years he began to break out in some pretty good sized welts whenever he got blasted by the hair.

Phil

 

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by Martin H.
however what's the correct term iit wasn't a nice experience for him: In the last years he got more and more sensitive to the reaction of urticaiting hairs. During cleanings of the tanks he is mumming himself (long trousers, pullover, latex gloves fixed to the pullover with tape,...). This time the reactions have been heavier than ever: his hands got swollen and numb, he got a flicker in front of his eyes, heavy shiverings, an itchiness with weep wheals all over his body,... good luck he had an anti allergycum at home.

Here you can read his experiences (scroll down till the posting of "Micha"): >>click here<<

all the best,
Martin

PS.: It was't a reaction to the latex gloves, because he is using them during his airbrush sessions without problems.

I think its of major importance that you dont mix up allergy reaction from anaphylaxix. The anaphylaxix could kill you, allergy reaction dont. Offcourse itching and swelling for weeks are not too pleasant - I know first hand. But it wasnt life threatening.
As for the term medical significant is used to a injury of some kind that requires medical attention. Thats not how I would describe a flesh cut that need stiching.
A lacerated vein yes. Both needs medical attention but only one is potentially lethal.
Same with poke bites, they are unpleasant and some decide to go to a hospital - but its not life threatening.

/Lelle

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Crotalus
I think its of major importance that you dont mix up allergy reaction from anaphylaxix. The anaphylaxix could kill you, allergy reaction dont.

I think it's also important that you stop with this bit of misleading nomenclature. Anaphylaxis is a specific type of allergic reaction. There is no reason to assume that a more generalised allergic reaction can or ever will progress to anaphylaxis, nor is there any reason to assume that you will get "warned" by having more generalised allergic reactions prior to suffering anaphylactic shock from something you are *allergic* to.

I am extremely allergic to crustaceans when eaten. My *allergic* reaction ranges from swelling of the extremities and lips, to difficulty in breathing, to full out anaphylaxis based on dosage of the allergen.

 

[rknralf]

Thanks to everyone who replied...

After some serious thought, I am going to start with a P. regalis. One of the nearby shops has 1 inch spiderlings for $25.00. I figure getting one small will allow me time to get comfortable with the tarantula as it grows.
As for all the concern, I appreciate all your opinions. I too had stayed away from them due to the internet accounts, but after raising a batch of P. murinus spiderings (126 spiderlings) with a good majority now at near to adult size, and several other fast/aggressive tarantulas (C. crawshayi, H. lividium, H. gigas, and P. irminia) I've learned to be hands off with certain species and how to respect their space.
I'll post pics when I end up getting one.
Thanks again!
Ralph
P.S. If you all have any additional information, please continue to post it, as I am always interested in hearing what other keepers have to offer.

 

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by Martin H.
even an allergy reaction can be life threatening – or can't a swollen throat be life threatening?
BTW, on the arachnid_world mailing list, Rick West wrote:
all the best,
Martin

Small rodents also die from theraphosid venom. Humans are not rodents and shouldnt be compared to them.

Code Monkey, crusteacans are wellknown to produce anaphylaxis.
What im saying is: theraphosid venom or urticating hair is not.

I guess you didnt care to read the link I provided so heres a outkast:

by Chris Harper, NREMT-P
and Bryan Grieg Fry, Ph.D:

"Allergic Reactions and Anaphylaxis: What's the difference?

Most people are familiar with the words "allergic reaction" and "anaphylaxis", but few know the difference. An immune response between antibodies and antigens is a normal protective function of the body to guard against diseases or infections. However, when the immune system over reacts, or is "hypersensitive", an allergic reaction occurs. The antigen causing the allergic reaction is then referred to as an "allergen".

An allergic reaction is marked by an increased physiological response to an antigen after a previous exposure, beyond what is considered normal. There are then 4 levels of response that may occur: A type I response occurs when a substance called "immunoglobulin E" or IgE, reacts to the presence of the antigen. This may lead to symptoms of hay fever or asthma, but possibly - anaphylaxis, which I'll get to in a moment. Type II and III reactions occur when immunoglobulins G or M combine with an antigen. These reactions may cause anything from local itching to widespread hives and other associated symptoms. Type IV reactions are caused by cells called T lymphocytes, and are usually quite delayed in onset, and generally not very severe.


Symptoms of an allergic reaction may be minor or severe, local or systemic. They may include local redness and itching, or itchy welts that appear over the whole body. The raised area that appears around a mosquito bite is an example of a local response. But I have personally seen severe allergic reactions that caused a person's face to swell to cartoonish proportions. However, this did not constitute anaphylaxis. So let's return to Type I reactions since they are potentially the most severe, and define anaphylaxis.


What is Anaphylaxis?

Anaphylaxis is an extremely severe allergic reaction that is mediated by a molecule called IgE, and IgE molecules are attached to cells called "mast cells". Mast cells contain a substance called histamine, which you might recognize from the word "antihistamine". When an antigen crosses paths with IgE and mast cells, this substance called histamine is released. Now, histamine in low doses is not all that bad, but it is annoying. It's that stuff that makes your nose swell shut when you have a cold, and your chigger bites itch like the devil. The problem with histamine is that during anaphylaxis it is released in massive quantities. And histamine causes the walls of the vascular system to become "leaky", thereby allowing the fluids in the blood to escape the vascular system. Think of it in this way: the pipes that run through the walls of your house containing water develop some leaks. And the water escapes into spaces outside the pipes, causing the sheetrock walls to swell. If enough water were lost this way, what would happen to the water pressure at the faucet? It would drop right? Well, think of anaphylaxis as the pipes in your walls springing a thousand leaks all at once. "

Misleading? No I dont think so.

/Lelle

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Crotalus
Misleading? No I dont think so.

In the context you used it in, I would say so. As even the linked article pointed out, anaphylaxis is a severe form of allergic reaction when your context implied otherwise.

You are quite correct in that T venom has never been known to trigger anaphylaxis and that is something that needs to be pointed out when people toss the possibility of allergies to venom being responsible for the reactions people have to bites.