living off the hobby

[Spiral_Stairs]

Since most people breed out of love of the hobby rather than financial reasons, most would probably continue breeding. If however, there were fewer breeders, then supply would tighten and prices would rise again.

Most dealers import rarer species that are new to the hobby or are difficult to breed. Once a species becomes established in the hobby, prices should fall due to increased supply based on captive breeding. The only way that an importer could change this is to manipulate the market (restrict who they sell to to make captive breeding difficult or impossible). Since most of the species being bred differ from those being imported, competition in the captive bred market shouldn't affect their business.

This is simple supply and demand. This is how almost everything commercial works...except tarantulas. I've been in this hobby for over 10 years and I have noticed the number of P. metallica available to the consumer rising. They are way easier to find right now than they used to be. I can think of 3 dealers right of the top of my head that have slings available. Not to mention all of the private sales of this particular species. And yet $185 for an unsexed sling that may or may not survive? Why? Not because they are rare. If I had the cash I could order as many as I wanted at any given time. I find this ridiculous. There seems to be a monopoly of sorts on certain species by dealers. I know that it is difficult to get a viable egg sac but you don't lose money if your female molts out or eats the sac! I was just exaggerating things to make a point in my first couple post but now you guys are getting me all fired up! lol Tomorrow I shall begin building my new e-commerce website 30dollarmetallicas.com.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

I would say the time, effort, worry, and initial costs of breeding a species like P. metallica have a lot to say about the cost of the end product. If I work my hind end off for something, I'm liable to charge more. Competitive pricing doesn't really apply to tarantulas, at least to me. If I had it to drop on a spider, I'd have my subfusca and metallica. As it is, I have to take care of my household first. But I'm certainly not going to call the breeder/dealer greedy. I just don't see it that way. My two cents anyway.

Edit- prices on metallica have been dropping, but slowly.

 

[blooms]

No one is calling anyone greedy here. All we are doing is discussing simple market economics. Of course start up costs must be taken into account when pricing, but does it really take more time to breed one species over another? Does it take more effort to breed one species over another?

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

priceing and what not

So as far as pricing goes there are many in the hobby that will price it out to where they make nothing just to get rid of the slings cause they can not care for them. Being imported, bred, or even selling their own collection this happens often.

I also have not seen much on the cost it takes to maintain live stock. You have to feed your animals every week which cost money. Some would argue well just breed the food then. For a small operation this is possible but you still spend time breeding food and feeding...and well there is the old adage, time is money. There are also cost of cages, substrates, water(I use bottled only), packing supplies and many other little cost people don't think about. Then there is death rates. No matter what if you have a large amount you will get deaths eventually.

As to pricing lower than your competition that can be done but I don't think dealers should enter into price wars ever. Could you imagine if I dropped all my pricing to be cheaper than all other dealers out there so you sell more instead? Possible yes, since able no. Well what would happen next....they would drop theirs to equal or be lower than mine. Yes we would all hit a point where we can't go any lower but I also think this would put us all out of business in the long run as none of us make a ton as it is. Then you would not have dealers till the next guy decided he was going to try.....well that could be an endless loop where you have fly by night dealers and no one you know is reliable and been around for a while. Or better yet you get one dealer that wins in the end and has monopoly which we have all learned to hate. Competition is a good thing in my opinion but certain respects to your competition should be in place. I don't think squeezing out your competition is a good thing. Its not good for the dealers, hobbyist or anyone in my opinion.

Now I do think people can make money on selling tarantulas and other bugs but never a lot and it will always be a lot of work to make just enough money to keep it all going. If you really love what you are doing then who cares if you don't make a lot. At least you have one up on everyone you know ....you love what you do

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

yes

No one is calling anyone greedy here. All we are doing is discussing simple market economics. Of course start up costs must be taken into account when pricing, but does it really take more time to breed one species over another? Does it take more effort to breed one species over another?

Yes a TON. The expensive species are usually expensive for 3 reasons. Hard to breed, rare and new, or just so popular hard to keep up with demand. I have tried to breed blondi(or what was being called blondi) for years now and have spent 100's of dollars and who knows how much time and space. We finally have 24 1st instar that will be hatching out here soon but for all the time and money it probably was not worth it monetarily. It was worth only knowing we have finally done it. Many times things that are worth more are harder to breed and have smaller sacks meaning yah you get more per one but it has a higher investment and lots more time to be successful meaning profits are still only marginally better.

To the argument above about you get a pair of metallica and get a sack...yah if it were that easy then p metallica would not be worth as much. Now there are those that get lucky and have that happen and well those are the ones you usually see selling them at an uber low price.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

No one is calling anyone greedy here. All we are doing is discussing simple market economics. Of course start up costs must be taken into account when pricing, but does it really take more time to breed one species over another? Does it take more effort to breed one species over another?

In a sense, yes, lots of species are harder to breed. In a fresh import not much is known about a species. It takes much trial and effort to determine what works and what doesn't, and with arachnids, a misstep can result in the loss of a rare, therefore valuable, mature male.
It works with reptiles the same way. You get a new species, nothing is known about it, and it is a learning process.
Many tarantulas will breed readily at room temperature, but some require simulation of wet and dry seasons and temperature swings. If it is a previously undescribed species, how is the breeder going to get it right and produce slings, even the first few attempts?

This is all my speculation gathered from reading various breeding reports, I haven't yet sucessfully bred any tarantula. I'm trying to start with the 'easy' ones though.

 

[blooms]

I also have not seen much on the cost it takes to maintain live stock. You have to feed your animals every week which cost money. Some would argue well just breed the food then. For a small operation this is possible but you still spend time breeding food and feeding...and well there is the old adage, time is money. There are also cost of cages, substrates, water(I use bottled only), packing supplies and many other little cost people don't think about. Then there is death rates. No matter what if you have a large amount you will get deaths eventually.

Granted there are other costs involved in maintaining livestock, but do cages, substrates, water, etc. really cost 100-200 USD? Of course breeders should be paid for their time, but how much time does one really spend? As for death rates, if you have had one successful sack, you've probably recouped the initial costs. After that, there is the cost of the new male (assuming you're only breeding him with one female) and cages, substrates, water, etc. So do prices go down on slings from a double/triple clutch or a second or third sack?

 

[blooms]

Yes a TON. The expensive species are usually expensive for 3 reasons. Hard to breed, rare and new, or just so popular hard to keep up with demand. I have tried to breed blondi(or what was being called blondi) for years now and have spent 100's of dollars and who knows how much time and space. We finally have 24 1st instar that will be hatching out here soon but for all the time and money it probably was not worth it monetarily. It was worth only knowing we have finally done it. Many times things that are worth more are harder to breed and have smaller sacks meaning yah you get more per one but it has a higher investment and lots more time to be successful meaning profits are still only marginally better.

I will defer to your knowledge about the difficulty breeding certain species, however, wouldn't that only be true for the first few sacks of a new species? After that, many people would have the experience to successfully breed that species and the population of individuals of that species would be higher, which would mean that the number of breeding pairs would be higher. With a higher supply wouldn't costs drop?

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Granted there are other costs involved in maintaining livestock, but do cages, substrates, water, etc. really cost 100-200 USD? Of course breeders should be paid for their time, but how much time does one really spend? As for death rates, if you have had one successful sack, you've probably recouped the initial costs. After that, there is the cost of the new male (assuming you're only breeding him with one female) and cages, substrates, water, etc. So do prices go down on slings from a double/triple clutch or a second or third sack?

It all just depends on size of collection. If you are just looking to make a little extra money on the side yes I think you can hardly put any time or money into it and make a little extra money in the end but I think the question here was doing it for a living.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

It also takes years in many cases to grow these slings to breedable size. That may be why it takes time for prices to drop.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

estimates

Here are examples of cost and these are just my memory and not all the cost

crickets $250 week
Water $10 week
Fruits and veggies $8 week - I get some for free that are left overs from farmers market or would cost more
space $250 week
Electric $50 week
substrate would guess about $10 week but I try not to reuse substrate incase last animal had anything it could pass on so could save some there
cages maybe $5 week

Those are all just estimates and there are many more little things but not going to type it all out and well I am much larger than most operations so my cost are higher too.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

yes and no

I will defer to your knowledge about the difficulty breeding certain species, however, wouldn't that only be true for the first few sacks of a new species? After that, many people would have the experience to successfully breed that species and the population of individuals of that species would be higher, which would mean that the number of breeding pairs would be higher. With a higher supply wouldn't costs drop?

Yes and no...some species are just never easy to breed and are imported in large amounts and even with breeding they just do it better in the wild for what ever reason or maybe we just don't have the "secret" Whatever the case most species do drop in price some over time but some still have a high price cause they never get going well in the hobby.

 

[blooms]

It also takes years in many cases to grow these slings to breedable size. That may be why it takes time for prices to drop.

That's a good point I had not thought of. Then just let me ask this question to test your hypothesis. I'm not sure how long Poecilotheria metallica have been in the hobby, but if it has been more than ten years we might be able to see a trend. Since Poecilotheria tend to mature fairly rapidly, you would expect to see P. metallica prices to be steady, then a quick decline based on maturation and increased supply, then steady prices again followed by a quick decline based on even greater numbers of mature individuals and greater supply. I'm asking any old-timers around here if this has been the case.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

That's a good point I had not thought of. Then just let me ask this question to test your hypothesis. I'm not sure how long Poecilotheria have been in the hobby, but if it has been more than ten years we might be able to see a trend. Since Poecilotheria tend to mature fairly rapidly, you would expect to see P. metallica prices to be steady, then a quick decline based on maturation and increased supply, then steady prices again followed by a quick decline based on even greater numbers of mature individuals and greater supply. I'm asking any old-timers around here if this has been the case.

If I remember correctly, when I joined the hobby and the boards, P. metallica was around 400 a sling. And there really hasn't been a whole lot of successful pairings from what I understand. Regalis are somewhat easier to breed, but they have been in the hobby longer. Therefore hobbyists are more familiar with their care and breeding.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

my knowledge

That's a good point I had not thought of. Then just let me ask this question to test your hypothesis. I'm not sure how long Poecilotheria metallica have been in the hobby, but if it has been more than ten years we might be able to see a trend. Since Poecilotheria tend to mature fairly rapidly, you would expect to see P. metallica prices to be steady, then a quick decline based on maturation and increased supply, then steady prices again followed by a quick decline based on even greater numbers of mature individuals and greater supply. I'm asking any old-timers around here if this has been the case.

From what I understand this species does not have large egg sacks usually, has 3 instars before spiderlings so higher chance of something going wrong and is not the easiest to get to drop a sac .....put that all on top of one of the most wanted species....well the price

we tried breeding a couple times but the cost of trying is just so high have not done too many times. I buy some and import some but never can get that many....I usually never have them in stock for more than a month.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

Ken, when you import is that wild caught individuals or overseas breeders? Just curious. Not sure if that corner of the world (India and such) has any laws protecting them.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Ken, when you import is that wild caught individuals or overseas breeders? Just curious. Not sure if that corner of the world (India and such) has any laws protecting them.

P metallica are always captive bred and I don't know anyone that has brought in any wild caught in for a long time. I usually only get babies. Most of the larger ones I have gotten in the past were from people in the US that grew up their babies and had to sell them.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

I knew they were critically endangered, but I wasn't sure if that meant anything to the local government. Local fauna isn't always top priorty when you have poverty, overpopultion, and every other human condition to deal with. Good to know.
Sorry for the off track. I'm fixing to undertake my second breeding attempt and can hardly think of anything else.

 

[Sodaboy1978]

I wouldn't live off of breeding my T's. I would take the money and put it to use, in buying supply's or another type of T. I think there would be to much risk involved in just breeding and living off of it. To many things can happen all at once, for it to be worth it.

 

[creaturefiend66]

thanks ken for all the input i think we got a little off track with the pricing, but lets keep it going. Ken how much time a week do you spend on your stock and do you have anyother job. maybe some pics of your room? if there isnt anything good at the expo tomorrow ill most likely be buying a few things from you btw.

thanks guys for all your opinions and input.