King Snake

[blacktara]

Ok, some notes and thoughts

1 - So far, my snake hasnt shown any tendancy to either shy away or to be aggressive in any way. He just kinda seems indifferent to me, my hand, and being picked up.handled. This is what, all of four days experience with a snake so it's obviously not closing the book on the issue, just an observation

2 - Noone answered about whether it's unusual for the snake to kill the mouse and then not even try to eat it. It's going on two days now and I am assuming that something cold and in rigor mortis aint gonna whet his appetite, so the mouse is goin in the trash can - but is this normal? One thought I had, since the snake is burrowing into the mulch most of the time is that maybe my apartment temp of about 70 degrees is a little cool and being February maybe it has him thinking of hibernating? Any validity to that?

3 - A colleague of mine who has some experience with snakes since his brother in law was a keeper at a nearby zoo suggested putting a thermal device under one part of the terrarium- not a heat rock, but a thing that slides under half the terrarium. He said it would provide safe heat and a temp gradient and that way the snake would go where he feels comfortable. It seems to make logical sense - should I do this?

4 - He also suggested getting the feeder mouse maybe two days ahead of time and actually giving IT spinach greens to munch on and thereby giving the snake a vitamin supplament when it eats - this one seems a LITTLE far fetched but -- ??

5- The snake last ate (if the pet store was accurate) eight days ago - My buddy said not to really be concerned unless it gets to three weeks or more and he still isnt showing any signs of wanting to feed. Thoughts there?

6 - As for the "natural diet" I dunno - I mean, in the wild, cats dont eat canned reprocessed meat by products as a general rule, but in captivity, they thrive on it

 

[blacktara]

On a totally different side note

Someone mentioned mambas - My buddy who has the zoo keeper brother in law is an ER doc. He had the following story. Some years back, one of the zoo personnel got tagged by their mamba. Apparently he opened the door through which the snake was usually fed and right as he did it poked its head thru and tagged him. The zoo staff took the guy and the three vials of antivenom that was old and looked horrible to the nearest ER, where there was a major uproar. The guy got the antivenom and did okay - never had to get tubed. Anyway, the case ended up being presented at a medical conference in the states. The funny part was that later the same day at the same conference, some South African doc presented like a 200 case series on mamba bite - and apparently in that series they had only a few deaths and apparently a third or more did quite fine without antivenom? (and each case didnt get the entire ER into a major tizzy) <P>

I'm guessing that maybe there are a fair number of dry mamba bites - The case series also doesnt quite jibe with the reports of near 100 percent fatality on untreated bites - I think that in fact the fatality from elapid bites comes from respiratory failure where the victim is bitten far out in the field and cant be gotten to a hospital to get the needed supportive care in time <P>
I am going to try and see if I can find this case study and read it and post a link if I find it on line.

 

[blacktara]

More on mambas

Anyone seen either the Jeff Corwin or Croc Hunter shows where they catch mambas?

Jeff Corwin was so excited/scared he was visibly trembling as he held the mamba behind the head and up to the camera. (Hey, I'd be peeing my pants, so Im not knocking Jeff) It just made quite an impression on me to see just how much respect even a guy like Corwin gave this snake

Croc, the crazy sob - some locals had a mamba in a house - he gets it outside and then proceeds to chase after it including climbing up into a tree to go after it - It was amazing but also kinda funny in a weird way

"Crikey. This is one of the world's deadliest snakes. One bite, and I'm a goner mate. Let's see what it does if I piss it off"

 

[Crotalus]

2 - Noone answered about whether it's unusual for the snake to kill the mouse and then not even try to eat it. It's going on two days now and I am assuming that something cold and in rigor mortis aint gonna whet his appetite, so the mouse is goin in the trash can - but is this normal? One thought I had, since the snake is burrowing into the mulch most of the time is that maybe my apartment temp of about 70 degrees is a little cool and being February maybe it has him thinking of hibernating? Any validity to that?

Sounds like you keep him too cold. Put a spot where he can sun himself and I believe the appetite will come back.

3 - A colleague of mine who has some experience with snakes since his brother in law was a keeper at a nearby zoo suggested putting a thermal device under one part of the terrarium- not a heat rock, but a thing that slides under half the terrarium. He said it would provide safe heat and a temp gradient and that way the snake would go where he feels comfortable. It seems to make logical sense - should I do this?

I never use heat pads myself, I prefer a spotlight.

4 - He also suggested getting the feeder mouse maybe two days ahead of time and actually giving IT spinach greens to munch on and thereby giving the snake a vitamin supplament when it eats - this one seems a LITTLE far fetched but -- ??

If you wanna add some vitamins you can get good vitamins at a petshop. Then you just dust the pinkie or what ever in it. If given dead food, you can inject the vitamins straight into the mouse.

5- The snake last ate (if the pet store was accurate) eight days ago - My buddy said not to really be concerned unless it gets to three weeks or more and he still isnt showing any signs of wanting to feed. Thoughts there?

Nothing to be concerned about no. How big is it? If adult he may go for weeks , if a neonate you should feed it once a week.

/Lelle

 

[Crotalus]

Anyone seen either the Jeff Corwin or Croc Hunter shows where they catch mambas?

Jeff Corwin was so excited/scared he was visibly trembling as he held the mamba behind the head and up to the camera. (Hey, I'd be peeing my pants, so Im not knocking Jeff) It just made quite an impression on me to see just how much respect even a guy like Corwin gave this snake

Croc, the crazy sob - some locals had a mamba in a house - he gets it outside and then proceeds to chase after it including climbing up into a tree to go after it - It was amazing but also kinda funny in a weird way

"Crikey. This is one of the world's deadliest snakes. One bite, and I'm a goner mate. Let's see what it does if I piss it off"

As you could see the mamba Irwin was tailing was trying to get away from him, not attacking him. If he decided to tag him Steve would have been in trouble. The tree mamba was a green one.
Most likely was the mamba tired after been messed about with before shooting the scene. And I dont believe for a second it was found in a house....

Best tv show about black mambas including a tv herper is Mark O Sheas program(his first tv appearence I think) about catching black mambas in South Africa for venom samples. They show a little bit more about the biology of the mamba and not just catch them and hold them up infront a camera.

/Lelle

 

[Crotalus]

Someone mentioned mambas - My buddy who has the zoo keeper brother in law is an ER doc. He had the following story. Some years back, one of the zoo personnel got tagged by their mamba. Apparently he opened the door through which the snake was usually fed and right as he did it poked its head thru and tagged him. The zoo staff took the guy and the three vials of antivenom that was old and looked horrible to the nearest ER, where there was a major uproar. The guy got the antivenom and did okay - never had to get tubed. Anyway, the case ended up being presented at a medical conference in the states. The funny part was that later the same day at the same conference, some South African doc presented like a 200 case series on mamba bite - and apparently in that series they had only a few deaths and apparently a third or more did quite fine without antivenom? (and each case didnt get the entire ER into a major tizzy) <P>

I'm guessing that maybe there are a fair number of dry mamba bites - The case series also doesnt quite jibe with the reports of near 100 percent fatality on untreated bites - I think that in fact the fatality from elapid bites comes from respiratory failure where the victim is bitten far out in the field and cant be gotten to a hospital to get the needed supportive care in time <P>
I am going to try and see if I can find this case study and read it and post a link if I find it on line.

Depends on what mamba you talking about here, theres the black mamba and theres the green mambas. I would think you talking about the green ones, they got somewhat weaker venom but stilll potent enough to kill you.
If you get tagged by a black mamba and dont get serum, you most likely die.
Good thing about mamba venom is you dont suffer any nasty after effects from it (when you get out of intensive care), like taipan venom for example.
And black mambas are wellknown not to deliver dry bites and I would think the same goes for the green. The high number of bites contra survivals could be mistaken ID.

To bundle "elapid bites" together is a dangerous mistake, there are almost 100% neurotoxic elapid venom (mambas for ex) and there are species with both neuro and cyto/hemotoxic venom (Naja kaothia) and there are species loaded with all kind of venom types possible (taipans, also destroying nerve endings and may cause hemmorages in the brain...).
So death follows a bite from any venomous snake depends more or less on when you get serum, and where you get bitten on your body.

But for Naja sp. and Dendroaspis sp. the outcome after a bite, if given good care with serum, is pretty good.

/Lelle

 

[blacktara]

Thanks

My king is a little over three feet long to answer your one question <P>

Thanks for the mamba info. Here in the states, we have only one native elapid, and I have never seen a coral snake bite <P>

We get a fair number of rattler and copperhead bites, and for those, treatment is basically the same for all - one antivenom CroFab covers all <P>

Coral snake venom has minimal proteolytic activity I didnt realize that some elapids had much more significant levels<P>

Bad crotalid bites can be nasty - massive tissue destruction, patients go into DIC and can easily die. I am sure you have heard the diary account of the experienced handler who got stupid and got tagged by a seven foot diamondback rattler he picked up free hand on a roadside somewhere

 

[Crotalus]

Many stories like that unfortunatly. The one you might be thinking of can be read in a article on venomousreptiles.org

/Lelle

 

[blacktara]

Thats the one!

Horror story

 

[xelda]

Blacktara, your friend's advice is correct. If you do use a heat pad or heat tape to warm the cage, be sure you have it connected to a thermostat or rheostat to control the temperature. Otherwise, they tend to overheat. It's a good idea to invest in a digital thermometer as well. You don't want the warm end exceeding 90 degrees. Keep hiding spots on both ends of the cage with the water bowl on the cool side. The bowl should be big enough for her to submerge completely under. I actually like to use the big dog bowls that are cut out from the bottom. They double as a cool hide and swimming pool for my snakes.

Feeding the feeder mouse prior to feeding it to the snake isn't far-fetched at all. It's called gutloading. You should be able to look up more info on that. I don't suggest using spinach though because those are high in oxalic acid which in high levels will bind to calcium. Chinese greens make a better choice.

I think you're right in that the temps might be causing your snake's lack of appetite and lethargy. 70 is a bit too warm to trigger brumation though. Another possibility is that your snake is getting ready to shed.

 

[chris73]

That killing and not eating thing IN MY OPINION is a stress factor. Newly aquired snakes that have been in my possesion have done this for up to 6 months before actually feeding. My largest Jungle Carpet was this way and now he eats like an absolute HOG!

I agree with the other posts as well about the temps. If they are off, there is no way to determine ANYTHING.

But I do think it's stress related being it's a new animal to your home. Give it time, leave it alone, provide a good hide and proper temps and it will be fine. Kings are super hardy and excellent, fun and personable snakes. Cal Kings (like your banana) are a fav. of mine.

Here is me holding Spock from last years clutch as I'm writing this:

No, my hands aren't dirty. I'm a printer and those are ink stains. :wall:

 

[Ishkabibble]

Blacktara,
I have a Hogg Island that kills its mouse then remains wrapped on it, lower on its body(the snakes body) and carries it around for about half an hour before consuming it. It always has done this, but eats it relatively quick everytime. I don't care what anyone may say, I personally believe every snake has its own unique personality, from my observations of mine. At least Boids seem to...

 

[Wade]

I personally believe every snake has its own unique personality, from my observations of mine. At least Boids seem to...

I currently keep a dozen or so kingsnakes of various species and subspecies (mostly at the nature center, but a few in my personal collection), as well as many rat snakes, pine/gopher snakes, and a few boids. My observation is that the individual snakes, even of the same species, vary greatly in behavior and feeding habits, especially with some of our geriatric ones. Some will feed everytime food is offered, others will refuse food during particular time of the year, and some will go on extended fasts that may last for months, only to resume later as if nothing happened. We generally feed pre-killed exclusively, but some of our snakes only take live. Some only seem to like fuzzy mice even though they're big enough to take large adults. A few of our snakes are notorious for taking a mouse and hen deciding to drop it later, usually in some out of the way spot in the cage where it'll go unoticed by the staff until it starts to stink.

So, while I agree with those who suggest upping the temp, I just wanted to throw in that skipping a meal or dropping a prey item doesn't necsarily mean that somethings wrong. It's something to take note of and pay attention to in case it develops into a pattern which could indicate trouble.

While it's certainly possible that kingsnakes benefit from having some reptiles in the diet, there's no evidence for that now. There's only the personal preference some keepers have, which isn't evidence. Keep in mind that any lizards or snakes (or turtles) that are cheap enough to be practical as feeders are almost certainly wild caught and likely loaded with parasites. Yes, of course, mice can carry parsites as well, but the odds of a parasite going from a captive-bred mammal to a reptile are much, much, much less than a parasite going from a wild caught reptile to annother reptile.

Wade

 

[Pheonixx]

I dont breed kings, but i do have a "mosaic" phase kingsnake. he is docile as a kitten and loves being out of his cage. He was bought as an adult and before we got him he was a proven breeder (he bred with 9 different females lots of times) he is about 6 1/2-7 feet long. hard to believe? see this thread
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=35478&highlight=kingsnake+chainsnake

we feed him in a seperate container and he eats mice only. he seems healthy and happy (though i am voting for a bigger cage) he eats about 5 mice a week.

 

[roach dude]

;P ;P Plz U Get On My Nerves Buying Othetr Reptiles Top Feed To A Snake Is Wrong How Could You What An Idiot Mice Are The Only Thing It Needs Case Closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Raindog]

Looks like you're a pint over capacity dude but from what I can get out of that I would agree. Keep it simple stupid, great phrase. Kings will do just fine on mice.

PS. Don't attempt to feed your snake a turtle. I keep getting this image in my mind of a snake trying to constrict a turtle.

 

[Wade]

;P ;P Plz U Get On My Nerves Buying Othetr Reptiles Top Feed To A Snake Is Wrong How Could You What An Idiot Mice Are The Only Thing It Needs Case Closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If lots of smilies, random capitalization and excesive abreviation don't convince 'em, nothing will.

Wade

 

[ReptilianQueen]

I currently own Corn Snakes that are spoiled to death, but I am contemplating buying a few Kingsnakes. I was just wondering if anyone could recommend a few color morphs that are inexpensive and readily available yet nicely colorful. I was hoping to get a male California Kingsnake so that I could breed it with one of my female Cornsnakes, most likely my Aztec, to see if I can't produce a few Jungle Cornsnakes.

 

[arampapik]

;P ;P Plz U Get On My Nerves Buying Othetr Reptiles Top Feed To A Snake Is Wrong How Could You What An Idiot Mice Are The Only Thing It Needs Case Closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need for that kind of language.
Only makes YOU sound like an idiot.
You can have an opinion, but that was rude.

 

[blacktara]

Just a follow up

I got a heating pad and placed it under a third of the tank, not under her rock or water dish. She is doing great, eating about three mice every two weeks, has shed twice, and has been more active as the days have gotten longer. Usually ignores a mouse when it's first dropped into the tank, and then the next morning, no more mouse.

She is very docile, and seems to enjoy a little time out of tank and handling a couple of times a week. I've learned you gotta keep an eye on her at all times. She can move quite fast and pretty quickly finds a dark space to slither into even when I think no such place is nearby.

And the activity in the tank when there's an active snake and a feeder mouse inside absolutely fascinates my two cats