King Snake

[blacktara]

I just got my first snake - a pretty banana king - about 3 feet long - boy I think from looking at his tail <P>

He seems extremely docile - almost like he enjoys being held and doesnt seem to wanna go back in the tank after being handled <P>

I have a few general questions -

1. Any potential problems or difficulties I should be on the lookout for in care and feeding? Should I vary his diet and sprinle in some insects frogs etc or just keep him on pinkies or mice?

2. Is it necessary in a nonvenomous and docile species like this to feed him in a speerate tank, especially since he'll be handled and it wont be like the only time the tank is opened is for feeding? <P>

3.What's the chance that for whatever reason on some specific day he wont wanna be handled and might nip at me? If he does, I'm assuming make sure he didnt hurt himself and then some local care including antiseptic for me? <P>
4.As far as handling him - how much is needed to keep him used to it? How much would be too much? I dont wanna get him stressed from being overhandled but I have also heard that with some species if you dont interact with them regularly they may tend to get ornery about being handled

 

[Crotalus]

1. They dont as far as I know feed on insects and additional frogs isnt necessery. They do very well on mice which contains every nutrition your snake need.

2. Not necessery at all. Snakes should be in their tanks anyway.

3. You get a few puncture marks. Just wash your hands which you should do anyway after working in a terrarium.

4. He get stressed no matter how little you handle a snake. They dont like beeing carried around. So if you are concerned about stressing him, dont handle him.

/Lelle

1. Any potential problems or difficulties I should be on the lookout for in care and feeding? Should I vary his diet and sprinle in some insects frogs etc or just keep him on pinkies or mice?

2. Is it necessary in a nonvenomous and docile species like this to feed him in a speerate tank, especially since he'll be handled and it wont be like the only time the tank is opened is for feeding? <P>

3.What's the chance that for whatever reason on some specific day he wont wanna be handled and might nip at me? If he does, I'm assuming make sure he didnt hurt himself and then some local care including antiseptic for me? <P>
4.As far as handling him - how much is needed to keep him used to it? How much would be too much? I dont wanna get him stressed from being overhandled but I have also heard that with some species if you dont interact with them regularly they may tend to get ornery about being handled

 

[xelda]

I have to disagree with a few things from the preceding post.

1. Mice actually don't offer a complete nutrition to your snake. It's enough, but nowhere near as complete as what he would eat in the wild. Kingsnakes eat other reptiles, so if you did want to give him a treat, you should be thinking along the lines of other snakes, lizards, and even turtles. That's completely up to you though. I don't recommend going outside to catch his treats for him.

2. It's not necessary to feed him in another tank as long as you're using a non-particle substrate. If you're keeping him on something loose like aspen, then you should be feeding him in a separate tank so he won't swallow a mouthful of splinters with his food.

 

[Crotalus]

1.Yes they eat snakes in the wild but not necesserily. And turtles?? Id like to see a kingsnake eating a turtle....
What do reptiles contain that mice lacks in nutrition? People have kept and breed kings for ages without given them feeder snakes, so im quite sure mice is good enough for them.

2.Offcourse if you put a drenched mouse in there, then substrate get stuck on it. Then again, I dont use aspen.

/Lelle

I have to disagree with a few things from the preceding post.

1. Mice actually don't offer a complete nutrition to your snake. It's enough, but nowhere near as complete as what he would eat in the wild. Kingsnakes eat other reptiles, so if you did want to give him a treat, you should be thinking along the lines of other snakes, lizards, and even turtles. That's completely up to you though. I don't recommend going outside to catch his treats for him.

2. It's not necessary to feed him in another tank as long as you're using a non-particle substrate. If you're keeping him on something loose like aspen, then you should be feeding him in a separate tank so he won't swallow a mouthful of splinters with his food.

 

[chris73]

I have my own opinions on two things here that are a bit contrary.

1 - IMO you shouldn't feed anything but mice. Although Kings are somewhat omnivorious in nature, lizards and frogs and what not will possibly (probably) introduce unwanted pathogens into the animal. In an enclosed environment, such parasites will eventually kill the snake.

2 - Snakes, especially Kingsnakes (at least the few in my collection) can have a very strong feeding response. A completely docile animal, if conditioned to feed when it's cage is opened, will possibly strike at any movement when first encountered. Removing the animal to a feeding cage will eliminate this. I made this mistake once, and now I have a 7ft. Carpet Python that strikes at me when I open it's enclosure. This is a bit unnerving at cleaning time. He is a beautiful animal and one of my breeders, but it is very difficult to handle him now beacuse I fed him in his cage since birth.

Hope this helped a bit.

 

[mimic58]

Well my kings well over 5ft an chunky as hell , shes been fed mice only nothing else , As for handling i dont recomend carrying it about but mine seem quite happy to just sit on me if i keep still they will even go to sleep.

 

[Zoo Keeper]

I would stay with the mice,if you feel it needs a change of pace, try a small rat.

 

[galeogirl]

You can also get pre-killed quail chicks. Most colubrids seem to enjoy them.

 

[Ishkabibble]

Blacktara,
First of all, congrats on getting your first Herp. They're as addictive as T's however.
I'd stick with mice for feeding if I were you. Your king should get enough nutrition on that diet, and only use captive bred mice to help reduce chances of disease being transferred to your snake. Frozen/thawed or live mice are almost always a controversy and both have their own merits and downsides.
I currently have 5 boids and feed each of them in separate feeding tank than where they live. This serves two main purposes: 1) they don't associate you reaching into the tank with food being served and reduces the chance of a strike. Mine have calmed down after I started this regiment of feeding. By the way, I also do not keep mice in the same room as the snakes. The aroma may trigger a more agressive behavior when they're hungry. I also feed them about the same time on a cycle of 7-10 days.
2) Often when the mice are constricted, they void their bladders and bowls. Feeding in a different container makes it easier to keep feeder mice's urine and feces out of your snakes enclosure.
I've found my snakes are relatively receptive to handling at any given time, but become more agitated when feeding days arrive or near their sheds. When you do pick your snake up, make slow movements where they can see you approaching. And don't over-handle your snakes. Remember, snakes, like T's are not lap pets.
I'd recommend you hold your your snake no more than 10-15 a day and not too many days in a row. Snakes don't relly learn to like being handled, they learn to accept being handled.
This being said, is based on my own experience. Others may disagree with me, and that is their right. Enjoy your snake. Remember to wash yours hands thoroughly before and after you handle your snake everytime, and here is a site about snakes, including kings. They're listed alphabetically:
www.kingsnake.com

 

[Ishkabibble]

I meant to say "handle your snake no more than 10-15 MINUTES a day, and not too many days in a row", OOOOOOOOPS!

 

[chris73]

Blacktara,
First of all, congrats on getting your first Herp. They're as addictive as T's however.
I'd stick with mice for feeding if I were you. Your king should get enough nutrition on that diet, and only use captive bred mice to help reduce chances of disease being transferred to your snake. Frozen/thawed or live mice are almost always a controversy and both have their own merits and downsides.
I currently have 5 boids and feed each of them in separate feeding tank than where they live. This serves two main purposes: 1) they don't associate you reaching into the tank with food being served and reduces the chance of a strike. Mine have calmed down after I started this regiment of feeding. By the way, I also do not keep mice in the same room as the snakes. The aroma may trigger a more agressive behavior when they're hungry. I also feed them about the same time on a cycle of 7-10 days.
2) Often when the mice are constricted, they void their bladders and bowls. Feeding in a different container makes it easier to keep feeder mice's urine and feces out of your snakes enclosure.
I've found my snakes are relatively receptive to handling at any given time, but become more agitated when feeding days arrive or near their sheds. When you do pick your snake up, make slow movements where they can see you approaching. And don't over-handle your snakes. Remember, snakes, like T's are not lap pets.
I'd recommend you hold your your snake no more than 10-15 a day and not too many days in a row. Snakes don't relly learn to like being handled, they learn to accept being handled.
This being said, is based on my own experience. Others may disagree with me, and that is their right. Enjoy your snake. Remember to wash yours hands thoroughly before and after you handle your snake everytime, and here is a site about snakes, including kings. They're listed alphabetically:
www.kingsnake.com

Well put. I agree 100%.

 

[xelda]

People have kept and breed kings for ages without given them feeder snakes, so im quite sure mice is good enough for them.

Yes, like I said in my previous post, a diet of mice is enough, but it's not complete as you first mentioned. The simple reason being that no matter how you try to look at it, a diet completely of mice is not the diet nature prescribed for them.

1 - IMO you shouldn't feed anything but mice. Although Kings are somewhat omnivorious in nature, lizards and frogs and what not will possibly (probably) introduce unwanted pathogens into the animal. In an enclosed environment, such parasites will eventually kill.

You run that risk with anything you feed them. Live mice are particularly known for carrying worms. Freezing them does not necessarily guarantee a pathogen-free feeder.

 

[Crotalus]

But it is complete. Tell me why it isnt? Nature didnt prescribed them to live inside a terrarium either...
But as long the snake eat, <EDIT=poop>, shed and propagate its healthy. Right? And they do just that on a 100% rodent diet.

/Lelle

 

[blacktara]

OK next question

Today he killed a mouse, but as of about two hours after killing it, he was just sitting there guarding it but had made no move to try and eat it. Is this common or is something odd going on here?

 

[xelda]

But it is complete. Tell me why it isnt? Nature didnt prescribed them to live inside a terrarium either...
But as long the snake eat, <EDIT=poop>, shed and propagate its healthy. Right? And they do just that on a 100% rodent diet.
/Lelle

From a biological standpoint, every animal has evolved so that the environment they naturally live in is perfect for them. This includes what evasive maneuvers they have against predators, adaptations to climate and weather changes, and most of all, what diet provides the nutrition their bodies have evolved to require. This is naturally going to be the diet that they find most appealing.

With captive reptiles, you have to think in terms of what foods are most natural for the animal, not in terms of what is most convenient for you to offer. For example, people think ball pythons and miami corns are finicky eaters because they refuse frozen-thawed mice, and it takes effort to get them trained to eat mice. In actuality, they love to eat just as much as any other snake. It's just that we don't give them the choice of what to eat. Yes, they can eat mice for their entire lives. But you are still forcing them to eat a diet that is not entirely natural for them. Doesn't it tell you something when people have to go through the trouble of scenting mice with anoles just to get their snakes to eat?

On a different tangent, just because a snake eats, poops, and sheds fine doesn't mean that it's perfectly healthy. A snake can perform all of those functions and still be harboring parasites, disease or other serious health issues that merely waits for the snake to get stressed out (thus lowering its immune system) before taking over. This happens quite a bit in people's collections. Any reptile can suddenly stop eating and then die without ever showing symptoms until it was on death's door, and the owner has no idea that the problems had actually been there for awhile. I've had it happen to me, and I've seen it happen to other people as well.

I also wanted to add that while boids may develop a feeding response by being fed in the same cage, kings are not as likely to exhibit the same behavior of striking your hand as soon as the cage opens. They are MUCH more timid and would rather dart away when your hand reaches into the tank even if you smell like food to them. Kings also tend to do better being fed a little more frequently than every 7-10 days for the first year or so. The ones that grow up eating spaced out meals don't ever reach their maximum potential in terms of size and breeding success. Even the eggs they lay are smaller and have lower fertility rates.

 

[Crotalus]

Offcourse in my posts i talk about kingsnakes, and kingsnakes alone since that was the topic. Im very well aware that mice as food dont work for all snakes species.

/Lelle

 

[chris73]

I also wanted to add that while boids may develop a feeding response by being fed in the same cage, kings are not as likely to exhibit the same behavior of striking your hand as soon as the cage opens. They are MUCH more timid and would rather dart away when your hand reaches into the tank even if you smell like food to them.

Not in my experience or in the Kings in my collection. They all have an unbelievable feeding response and as they get larger become capable of delivering a painful bite.

Your statement is way too generalized. There is no way you should state this as fact when it is entirely incorrect. Perhaps SOME Kingsnakes are timid, but to say all of them is absurd.

And to state that HAVING FOOD ODOR ON YOUR HANDS WILL NOT ELICIT A STRIKE? This is terrible! Without the heat receptors of Pythons, Colubrids key in on movement and SCENT almost entirely!

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't want someone to read this and wind up getting bit because they did not have the facts.

I do agree with your idea of feeding schedules though. All the Colubrids in my collection over the years have benefited from being fed more than the Pythons I keep.

 

[Crotalus]

With captive reptiles, you have to think in terms of what foods are most natural for the animal,

Yes exactly and turtles are not included as a natural diet to kings...

In actuality, they love to eat just as much as any other snake. It's just that we don't give them the choice of what to eat. Yes, they can eat mice for their entire lives. But you are still forcing them to eat a diet that is not entirely natural for them. Doesn't it tell you something when people have to go through the trouble of scenting mice with anoles just to get their snakes to eat?

So you say kings dont eat mice? We are still talking about kings right?

On a different tangent, just because a snake eats, poops, and sheds fine doesn't mean that it's perfectly healthy. A snake can perform all of those functions and still be harboring parasites, disease or other serious health issues that merely waits for the snake to get stressed out (thus lowering its immune system) before taking over.QUOTE]

A snake that got parasites or are in any way sick usually dont eat. That common knowledge and a good indicator that your snake is infact sick in someway (along with other symptoms offcourse).

I also wanted to add that while boids may develop a feeding response by being fed in the same cage, kings are not as likely to exhibit the same behavior of striking your hand as soon as the cage opens. They are MUCH more timid and would rather dart away when your hand reaches into the tank even if you smell like food to them.

Any snake that smells food may strike at your scented hand. I dont see why kings would be an exception.
Generalizations based upon your own animals are never good advice really.

/Lelle

 

[xelda]

Not in my experience or in the Kings in my collection. They all have an unbelievable feeding response and as they get larger become capable of delivering a painful bite.

Let me clarify here. My kings show a great feeding response as well, but not to the point where they will lunge at my hand as soon as the cage door opens. I do feed them all in the same enclosures they are housed in and yes, it does smell like mice sometimes when I do open the cage door. No surprising attacks whatsover regardless of whether it's a feeding day or not. On the contrary, all of my kings are prone to shy away from my hand. They only show the feeding response when they detect a warm mouse under their nose. They do not stretch their necks to follow the scent of mice. Even my corns are more likely to do that than my kings. Indeed, the only snake I've ever had constrict and bite my hand because it smelled like mice was a baby corn.

Your statement is way too generalized. There is no way you should state this as fact when it is entirely incorrect. Perhaps SOME Kingsnakes are timid, but to say all of them is absurd.

I never stated this as an absolute. In fact, I said "not as likely" and "much more timid" which implies some kind of comarison here--which was my intention. However, if you want me to be more specific, I can go ahead and specify that the common kings (L. getula) tend to be more timid (than the boids that were being used as a model for advice), or more specifically Florida, California, and Eastern kings.

Yes exactly and turtles are not included as a natural diet to kings...

Yes they are, but how exactly is this relevant? You might be surprised by how much one king is capable of consuming in terms of body mass.

So you say kings dont eat mice? We are still talking about kings right?

I never said that kings don't eat mice. Show me where I actually say that. My point was that eating ONLY mice, that is mice and no other food other than mice, is not a natural diet to kings. In the wild, mice are only a small component of the variety of animals they eat.

Any snake that smells food may strike at your scented hand. I dont see why kings would be an exception.
Generalizations based upon your own animals are never good advice really.

What about the people here giving advice who don't even OWN kings? That seems pretty ironic to me. And before you tell me that I'm giving bad advice, maybe you should look at your first post in this thread which is the only reason I even said anything in the first place.

 

[Crotalus]

Yes they are, but how exactly is this relevant? You might be surprised by how much one king is capable of consuming in terms of body mass.

Not really surprised over how much a snake can swallow since i kept snakes since 1984.. But your turtle diet is something new. Please post references.

I never said that kings don't eat mice. Show me where I actually say that. My point was that eating ONLY mice, that is mice and no other food other than mice, is not a natural diet to kings. In the wild, mice are only a small component of the variety of animals they eat.

No as I told you in a earlier post they eat snakes aswell, but that doesnt mean you have to give them snakes as food in captivity. They thrive very well on mice.

What about the people here giving advice who don't even OWN kings? That seems pretty ironic to me. And before you tell me that I'm giving bad advice, maybe you should look at your first post in this thread which is the only reason I even said anything in the first place.

I can give you advice on black mambas too, but I never owned one. But I sure have a interest for them and read alot of them in books and in articles...
I think my advice in my first post is accurate. You disagree and want to feed kings turtles. Ok so be it.

Edit: Ok, I made a search and found a few sites claiming that kings eat hatchling turtles (acctually never heard that before). I can swallow that but that doesnt mean they need it in the terrarium. Or that they need snakes to feed on in the terrarium either.

/Lelle