Just how venomous are Sicarius?

[buthus]

Buthus, could you post pictures of their enclosures? I'm thinking we could make this thread a good Sicarius guide sticky for the forum. Seeing as these are the first true spiders consistently in the US hobby to be equal with level 4 - 5 scorpions, it might be appropriate to have a special info/ guidelines sticky, for the good of all concerned.

Venom! So sorry for the rudeness ..been REALLY bad about remembering to get back to certain posts.
I have mine in the same config as Kevin ...or close. Using large hole in lid covered with nylon wedding veil for plenty of air.
One died ...bummer.

I care sheet/page would be cool. If I can help in some way.. Ill try to get what you need.

 

[Venom]

Hey, that's no problem Buthus! I didn't mean to be pushy. I know we're all busy. I just thought: hey, these are way more venomous than our average fare of true spiders, maybe a special page is in order--a guide to safety with this animal, and why it is so necessary. Anywho, if anyone has pics of the enclosure they use, that'd be great. The more keeping/ precaution info as we can get on this page, the better!

I still vote we make this thread a sticky.

 

[RodG]

Excellent info Venom:clap: And I agree 100% with your view to make this a sticky on this species of true spiders. Having dealt with some very hot scorpions I know for a fact one can never be too cautious and one can never have too much info on the proper care of something that can make you take a dirt nap in real short order!!!

 

[Malcara]

One Question

:? So why would anyone other than a scientist/medical DR. trying to make antivenine want to own one? I don't mind owning animals that can kill me so long as there is antivenine, but even if this species had a synthesised life saving medicine, after reading this thread it wouldn't matter too dangerous. And yes noobs shouldn't get into this hobby already it's getting to hard to attain exotics in FL, people releasing pets or improperly housing them so they escape. We now have surviving populations of non-native Boas, Pythons, Anacondas, Iguanas, Tarantulas, and scorpions. Now all it will take is some MORON to buy some new super deadly animal and have an upset mommy and daddy with ten million reporters completely destroy the hobby. To own anything non-native in FL now requires a permit, and most counties now require microchips be implanted in your snakes and Iguanas so if it's found in the wild your fined and have all permits revoked for a year I believe. Yes all permits, FWC and FDACS do not allow you to own any non-native animal if your caught releasing possible enviromentally detrimental animals or break any other laws reguarding exotics. I HATE THE BASTARDS THAT RUIN THIS HOBBY FOR ALL OF US. STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN"T BREED!!!! :wall: :wall:

 

[Tarantula_Hawk]

i agree, but still betther than what happened in Italy which is extremely lame ... back in 2003, this guy got bit by one of his tarantulas while he was letting them crawl on himself only to discover he was allergic, and eventually he died....now because of this moron, it is illegal to keep ANY arachnid since 2003 (by any i mean even the harmless ones, since the idiots that made the law where total ignorants and thought all arachnids are venomous deadly monsters):wall:

 

[What]

We now have surviving populations of non-native Boas, Pythons, Anacondas, Iguanas, Tarantulas, and scorpions.

Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.

The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.

As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why I choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it?

Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.

 

[Venom]

It is a fundamental human right to judge for oneself what is an acceptable risk to oneself.

I don't have the right to endanger you, or anyone else, but I sure have the right to endanger ME, if I see fit to do so. For those who keep venomous exotics, the goal is to keep hazard confined to onself. This is called responsibility. All or nearly all venomous keepers ( as testified to by our track record of ZERO non-hobbyists ever being bitten/ stung by a hobbyist's animal --check it out, it has NEVER happened that a non keeper was envenomated by an invertebrate keeper's animal. ) are EXTREMELY conscious of their responsibility, and extremely mature and cautious in their dealings with venomous animals. This is in part due to our excellent breeder/ dealers, who refuse sale to minors, idiots, and the inexperienced. The vast majority of those whom you see keeping venomous animals on this forum, have already been keeping for quite some time. In short, most venomous keepers are highly qualified to be so, and represent some of the most responsible, cautious, skilled and mature keepers in the hobby.

The risk of something toxic being released by such a person is abysmally low. This really is a safe hobby, even if the animals themselves are unsafe, the keepers make up for that in diligence and responsibility!

 

[crpy]

Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.

The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.

As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why I choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it?

Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.

I found a Burmese python, ball python, Water monitor (2), many tokays, spectacled caiman and a yellow anaconda in Central Fla. Escaped pets or intentionally let loose, who knows. Also I have seen a Coati mundi, Nile monitors. Not to mention all the documented spp. of cobra in Central Fla.

 

[What]

Crpy, I never said that people dont release their pets in the everglades. Just that the majority of the snakes(burms) are from one bloodline, or are believed to be so by the herpetologists working on it.

 

[crpy]

Crpy, I never said that people dont release their pets in the everglades. Just that the majority of the snakes(burms) are from one bloodline, or are believed to be so by the herpetologists working on it.

I know, just added some stuff.

 

[Malcara]

Do some research as to how those things got to where they are in Florida.

The scorpions were in containers that came in on cargo ships. The tarantulas most likely have been there for at least 30 years, long before this hobby ever really started. As for the snakes, there is no proof that there have been mass numbers of people releasing their pets into the everglades. In fact the herpetologists working on it believe most of the snakes to be descended from one original female.

As for the original question in your post, go read my post earlier in the thread. It explains why I choose to keep them. Many others dont have the same reason, but who are you to ask them to justify it?

Do some actual research about the spiders. Ask people who have posted here in private if you have to. But dont spout off crap about a subject you know nothing about, along with flawed reasoning.

I did do research Animals have come to the USA in cargo ships and such, but scorpions also have come over in the personal luggage of our soldiers in Iraq and such. I caught my own aunt setting non-native gerbals free at our local park. Our Boa problem were do to the fact of drug smugglers are using snakes to smuggle in Meth and Cocaine, as well as people setting reticulated pythons and Burmese or other large species after they were to big to keep. Iguanas are belive to be a mix of everything, the spiders I couldn't find much on. All in all with our globalized world economy, non-native animals/plants will find their way across the world from trade, but a large portion of the animals here in FL are from irresponsible people. So I have done my research. So don't give me crap about it. Every year it gets harder and harder for me to own exotics and since I'm trying to start my own business bredding and selling trust me I've spect hours and hours reading up on this stuff. I've read hundreds of articles and watched plenty of video clips on the laws concerning this hobby as well as the stories about those who have broken them. Furthermore since I've lived here my whole life born and raised so I've been hearing about it my whole life. I'm tired of everyone blaming it all on the cargo ships. Yes they are in part partially responsible, but I personally have known people who have set snakes free in the everglades. I even reported my own friend for letting go his burmese. So do a little bit more research yourself. Maybe we should blame our president for the scorpions. If we hadn't gone to war our troops wouldn't be finding scorpions in their C bags after they get home on leave. Also my mother was a nurse in the ICU (Intensive Care Unit) of the local hospital she took care of a yound soldier who died from a Fat Tail sting when a scorpion crawled out of his gear.

 

[Malcara]

:wall: Look guys I'm not in the mood to argue it's pointless. I understand completely why you would want something dangerous or deadly. I'd love to have a Golden Fat Tail scorpion (Androctonus Australis,) but the liability is too great. Even though I post warning labels on all my scorp/T tanks listing venom toxicity and agression etc. all it would take is some stupid friend of mine ignoring the label and getting stung. I would be completely responsible for his medical bills etc. and if he was unfortunate enough to die well than I'd have a serios problem. Knowing the way our court system in FL works I'd get sued or worse. Than all the concerned people that know nothing about our great hobby would freak out and try doing all they could to make exotics illegal to own and what not. Than permit prices would go up, more species would be added to the strictly prohibited list, etc. than the cost of the breeding/selling business would go up. Breeding exotics is a dream I've had since a kid and I dont want irresponsible people ruining it for all of us. So I apologize, but sometimes I get furious about this sort of crap.

 

[What]

If you feel soo strongly about it then maybe write letters to your local newspapers and officials about the constrictor ban. If that goes through it will open up all kinds of pathways for invertebrate bans.

I am as much an advocate for smart, responsible, and more importantly safe invertebrate keeping. The area that I keep my inverts in has restricted access and I have no worries of anyone who should not be in the room being in it.

I have spoken to one of the dealers who is local to me and who sells them about who he is selling them off to and he has been very careful in warning the people who are buying them of the dangers, and possible legal issues that relate to keeping them.

I am not nearly as worried about Sicarius as I will be once the Phoneutria sp. in the hobby currently become more widespread. If you really want to get worked up over something do so about those. Not about a spider that almost has to have sand in order to provide itself with a decent camouflage.

 

[RottweilExpress]

For starters, the absolute majority of the Sicarius in the hobby is terrosus. And S. terrosus are not that venomous at all. Yes, it will give you a nasty wound of necrotic tissue and an uggly scar to tell the tale. But it's the S. hahni that are the deadly spider here, responsible for the description htat Venom quoted from articles. The other 20 known Sicarius sp I cannot vouche for. So get some S. Terrosus and enjoy these little predators!

They are pretty original and fun to watch. I keep them in low plastic cups, and none of them has been able to climb at all (yet). They are semi visible and will stirr if the plastic lid is popped off. They are fast! Also, they are not aggressive to humans, and will not bite any time soon. I read an article (source unknown at this point) where the auther often picked up these spiders with bare hands not afraid of being bitten. Even the S. hahni.

They hunt well, but the prey usually has to pass by closely to the spider for it to unmask itself and hunt. Then it quickly tags the prey and backs off for the venom to work. Usually a few seconds and the prey will slow down or fall to the side. They never get anywhere. The spider follows and then grabs the prey and wrestle it for a bit with it's slender long legs and put the fangs down "for good".

I keep 4 S. terrosus of various sizes and have a healthy respect for them. No fear, respect. Like somebody said, I'd fear any Phoneutria 100 times more.

 

[Moltar]

back in 2003, this guy got bit by one of his tarantulas while he was letting them crawl on himself only to discover he was allergic, and eventually he died....

Have you seen any documentation of this incident or is it just anecdotal? I ask because my understanding of the nature of theraphosid venom is that it isn't capable of causing a serious (anaphylactic) allergic reaction because it is made up of peptides rather than proteins. Something about peptides being too small to bind with histamine (or was it too big...)

I did a good bit of searching and reading on the subject when I was just getting into this hobby and didn't find any hard documentation either way but it seems logical if the peptide size thing is accurate. Before your post my understanding was that there was never a documented fatality from a tarantula bite or even a documented anaphylactic reaction.

Venom, didn't you post on this question a few times?

 

[coffin pest]

I think it's grand to finally see a worthwhile thread about Sicarious sp. What a wonderous spider this is. Most of what can be said has already been put forth by the fellow Venom and others.
I will concede, though tentatively, that the venomic potential for cellular necrosis and mortification of peripheral flesh (with respect to the point of envenomation) in addition to the horrendous danger in the possibility of cytotoxin entering the circulatory system (possibly engaging with the brain) endowes Sicarious sp. with a place above others (in terms of venom prowess).
Bearing rather strong similitude to its' cousin, Loxosceles, Sicarious prefers to flee in retreat than actively pursue engagement (of humans that is!). Conversely, during predation the spider remains in modes of inactivity, attempting to bury itself subsurface, to act as a "trap" when prey move near.
Again, the necrotoxic venom of Sicarious is unusually insidious, and if does not kill, it will leave the victim with a mortified wound, eventually possibly gangrenous, requiring amputation, or disfigurement.
Still, a fascinating specimen.

 

[Venom]

Have you seen any documentation of this incident or is it just anecdotal? I ask because my understanding of the nature of theraphosid venom is that it isn't capable of causing a serious (anaphylactic) allergic reaction because it is made up of peptides rather than proteins. Something about peptides being too small to bind with histamine (or was it too big...)

I did a good bit of searching and reading on the subject when I was just getting into this hobby and didn't find any hard documentation either way but it seems logical if the peptide size thing is accurate. Before your post my understanding was that there was never a documented fatality from a tarantula bite or even a documented anaphylactic reaction.

Venom, didn't you post on this question a few times?

Yes, I've heard about this purported death. Supposedly, a Russian keeper of Theraphosa blondi was bitten by his spider, and died due to anaphylaxis.

I also saw Elvis last week.

Honestly, if you were going to pick a tarantula to make a bologna spook-story out of, wouldn't you pick at least a semi-potent species, if you wanted it to be believable?? BUT, if you only wanted a sensationalized load of crud, the largest tarantula on earth is a good place to start.

This story is pure fiction. It has never been substantiated, and to the contrary, a large body of evidence relating to New World Theraphosid bites only leads to the conclusion that their venom is woefully underpotent in humans. No allergic reaction to a tarantula bite has ever been documented. No death from a tarantula bite has ever been documented.

The closest thing to a confirmed T-human kill was a report that a man bitten on the foot in Indonesia from, assumedly, a Selenocosmia sp. died. But this is believed--by myself and others--to have been from secondary infection, not induced by the tarantula, but by the fact that he was--supposedly--bitten on the sole of the foot, and in a country where most people run around barefoot in the jungle and through filthy streets. That's IF it really happened. It may just be another story.

Stories like these pop up from time to time, but they almost always occur in some remote village in a 3rd or 4th world nation, with no medical treatment available ( and so no documentation of the event ), and with no corroborating evidence other than some tribal or rural villager's say so. People in these places often say what they think the researcher wants to hear, hence corrupting the reliability of such claims.

The bottom line has been, and remains, that no bite from any tarantula has ever been confirmed as having killed a human being, of any age or health, regardless of tarantula species. That is not to say it would be completely impossible--if a seriously ill person with, say, severe muscular dystrophy or multiple sclerosis were bitten by a Poecilotheria or Selenocosmia, there is a chance that their PRE-EXISTENT condition could be worsened fatally, but it would NOT be the result of a fatal tarantula bite, because tarantula bites do not kill healthy persons. They bear the potential to excacerbate health problems that already threaten a person's health, and that is the most that can be said for their threat level.

 

[Venom]

Again, the necrotoxic venom of Sicarious is unusually insidious, and if does not kill, it will leave the victim with a mortified wound, eventually possibly gangrenous, requiring amputation, or disfigurement.
Still, a fascinating specimen.

That's why, all things being equal, I feel a strong cytotoxin is much worse than an equivalently strong neurotoxin. With neurotoxin, it's basically all-or-nothing: you die or almost completely recover. With cytotoxin, all bets are off, you could die now, or in a year from complications, or from a heart attack several years from now, or simply be left with a huge gaping hole/ lost limb. It's not a clear-cut case of what will happen. But you can bet that you won't come out unscathed, like you can when surviving a Phoneutria or Latrodectus or Hadronyche bite.

 

[chris 71]

just going through this thread very interesting . just a curious thought regarding the supposed Theraphosa blondi bite death. i wonder if someone could potenionaly have an anaphylactic reaction to the urticating hair if inhaled. die of asphyxiation and than a bite be blamed for the death. because it might seem more sensational. just a curious thought.

 

[coffin pest]

I agree with you there, Venom. Neurotoxic envenomation, though serious, is temporal and treatable, in contrast to necrotizing cytotoxin.
I think I would rather be burned with concentrated sulfuric acid than take a substantial dosing from Sicarious.