Isn't it impossible to tame a Tarantula?

[Xian]

http://www.archive.org/stream/arachnidaembolob00warb/arachnidaembolob00warb_djvu.txt

scroll down to section 27 "iv] MENTAL POWERS OF SPIDERS 27"

The entire article is good.........but section 27 deals with this thread.

 

[splangy]

Wait. You said that tarantulas learn by genetic inheritance, and that stimuli the mother is exposed to can be passed to the young. Are you saying, then, that responses to stimuli alter the genetics of the mother? I am confused.

And isn't that sort of kind of what I said above? That "training" would happen over several generations through human interference? Or am I totally missing the point?

 

[jebbewocky]

My apologies for the double post: I was editing and something went wrong. Anyhow, Tarantulas learn by genetic inheritance. At birth, they come pre-programed with the basics of survival and have limited a limited capicity to learn. HOWEVER, a they do learn, the mothers pass on this aquired information to their young! In the end, the more information learned, the more 'outdated' information is kicked out of their brains.. to then be passed on down again and again. Scientific conjecture would then state: If you kept a mother T in a controlled enviornment and subjected her to differing stimuli, she would in turn pass what she can collect, to her young. Split those Ts up (let's say 2 for example): Keep one female in the same enviornment, and the other in an uncontrolled enviornment. Gradually, over time the Ts continually placed inside the controlled enviornment would lose much of their ability to survive in the wild, but will adapt to her new enviornment. Meanwhile, the Ts inside the uncontrolled encloseure would retain and regain the information to survive in theirs... though it may take each a few birthing cycles to obtain this effect.

The stimuli for example would be things like electro-shock in certain areas. Climbing in certain places to recieve food etc etc. There are many types of stimuli that can be used to effect this. These are just a few examples. The basic portions of their brains function like many creatures.. except so far as science has been able to prove, that is pretty much the extent of it. So, you could train a T (based on conjecture).. but it wouldn't be the T you started with.. it would probably be around the 2nd or 3rd generation babies.

I wish I had taped the episode. (I'm a Discovery/Animal Planet/History freak ESPECIALLY when it deals with Ts!)

Um. I'm gonna have to call baloney on that one. Lamarck and all.

 

[Draychen]

Yes, Splangy, you got it right. The 'training' would happen over generations. I think perhaps by genetic inheritance, they mean that the information gathered is then passed on through their genes. Basically, an alteration of the information passed down to their young.

 

[splangy]

http://www.archive.org/stream/arachnidaembolob00warb/arachnidaembolob00warb_djvu.txt

scroll down to section 27 "iv] MENTAL POWERS OF SPIDERS 27"

Perhaps I'm reading the wrong location. The only thing I saw was discussing how the spider became accustomed to a tuning fork, but then promptly forgot the lesson they had learned by the next day? Going to paste it here in case anyone else would like to read.

So much, then, as to the senses of spiders; but what about their " educability ' -their power of learning from experience ? Here is evidently a wide subject, and a difficult one full of pit-falls for the unwary, but we may nevertheless draw some inferences from the quite elementary experiments on the senses which have been outlined above. A spider drops on account of the sounding of the tuning-fork in its neighbourhood; can it be educated to take no notice of the sound after repeatedly finding that no evil consequences follow? It will perhaps be most instructive to give in a condensed form the results of an actual experiment selected from many performed by two American arachnologists, George and Elizabeth Peckham, whose researches have thrown more light than any others upon the mental equipment of spiders. They had an individual of the small Epeirid species Cyclosa conica under observation for a month, and tested it almost daily with the tuning-fork. At the sound of the fork the spider would drop ; when it had recovered itself and returned to the snare the fork would be sounded again, and so on. Now on July 20 the spider fell nine times successively the last three times only an inch or two and then took no further notice of the vibrating fork. On subsequent days, until August 5, she fell either five, six or seven times, except on two occasions when a day's test had been omitted, and then eleven successive falls occurred before the spider ceased to respond. On August 5 she seemed startled at the sound but did not fall, though the fork was sounded nine times. During the remainder of the experiment she generally remained perfectly indifferent to the fork, though on one or two occasions she partially forgot her lesson and dropped a very short distance, immediately recovering herself.

Observe that the basis of educability is memory. For a fortnight, in the case of this particular spider, the lesson learnt on one day seemed to be entirely
forgotten the next morning, but thereafter a definite change of habit seemed to result. This does not appear a very great intellectual achievement, but it
is by no means despicable, for it must be borne in mind that the habit of dropping when alarmed is almost the only means of defence such a spider
possesses, and the instinct which prompts it must be very strongly ingrained. In the words of the experimenters "Taking this into consideration, it seems remarkable that one of them should so soon have learned the sound of the vibrating fork, and should have modified her action accordingly."

This single experiment has been here described in some detail largely for the purpose of impressing the reader with the importance of reducing the problem
to its simplest terms before any inferences are drawn, and it may well act as a model for any which he may be inclined to undertake on his own account. The more complicated the action, the more likely is the experimenter to read into it motives and mental operations which exist only in his own imagination,
and with this warning we must take leave of a subject which might tempt us to encroach too much on an allotted space.

<<EDIT my apologies... I didn't read who had posted what and thought Dray had posted the link about the educatability of spiders. That's why I was confused. Anyway, it's there in case anyone is interested about reading. >>

 

[Draychen]

Yes, the spider did forget it's lesson, but later on after showed no signs of reacting to the tuning fork (Basically it learned to ignore it). However, in science, a single test is not solidified evidence. Numerous tests must be conducted before coming to a proper conclusion. For that test to be taken as fact, it must be run hundreds or times with the same species.. and then it must be run hundreds of times with diferent species. The results must be thoroughly doccumented every step of the way. Only then will the end results (when compared) will be accepted as fact. And ONLY for those species tested.

 

[Xian]

Yes, the spider did forget it's lesson, but later on after showed no signs of reacting to the tuning fork (Basically it learned to ignore it). However, in science, a single test is not solidified evidence. Numerous tests must be conducted before coming to a proper conclusion. For that test to be taken as fact, it must be run hundreds or times with the same species.. and then it must be run hundreds of times with diferent species. The results must be thoroughly doccumented every step of the way. Only then will the end results (when compared) will be accepted as fact. And ONLY for those species tested.

Totally Agreed!
Which would have to be done before testing your theory of genetic alteration thru learning.

 

[Steve Calceatum]

http://www.archive.org/stream/arachnidaembolob00warb/arachnidaembolob00warb_djvu.txt

scroll down to section 27 "iv] MENTAL POWERS OF SPIDERS 27"

The entire article is good.........but section 27 deals with this thread.

Thanks Xian....it was a pretty informative article, but I especially liked the part where it said:

"This single experiment has been here described in some detail largely for the purpose of impressing the reader with the importance of reducing the problem
to its simplest terms before any inferences are drawn, and it may well act as a model for any which he may be inclined to undertake on his own account. The more complicated the action, the more likely is the experimenter to read into it motives and mental operations which exist only in his own imagination, and with this warning we must take leave of a subject which might tempt us to encroach too much on an allotted space."


Again, it is not the tarantula's responsibility to adapt to us, but ours to adapt to them. If they do reciprocate that adaptation (to whatever speculative level), then it is a privledge and not a consistant set of behaviors to expect from your tarantula. Nor is this privledge to be taken for granted either, lest they suddenly decide to not be so "co-operative," as it were.

As far as captive-breeding genetics goes........this is not a subject with much study behind it, and attributions to behaviors through generations via captive-breeding would only be speculative at best. Even if this phenomena were to be substantiated by hard empirical evidence, you would still only be training by proxy, and thus not (in fact) "Training" an individual tarantula.

 

[splangy]

No you're right. "training" would be the wrong word for the effects of selective breeding. "taming" would be a better word, and i don't think it really would even count for the sake of this thread. I was throwing that in there to re-emphasize the capacity a tarantula has for "getting used to us."

although, I must say.... if i had the money and the resources (and the ability to kill all of the ferocious Ts), selective breeding to see if you could actually alter the demeanor of a particular breed would be uber interesting!


ability to kill meaning.... i would feel guilty and cry myself to sleep every night.

 

[Xian]

Thanks Xian....it was a pretty informative article, but I especially liked the part where it said:

"This single experiment has been here described in some detail largely for the purpose of impressing the reader with the importance of reducing the problem
to its simplest terms before any inferences are drawn, and it may well act as a model for any which he may be inclined to undertake on his own account. The more complicated the action, the more likely is the experimenter to read into it motives and mental operations which exist only in his own imagination, and with this warning we must take leave of a subject which might tempt us to encroach too much on an allotted space."
.....

Thanks, I posted it merely to show an experiment that had been done in the past. I'm in no way taking sides either way on this debate.

 

[Steve Calceatum]

although, I must say.... if i had the money and the resources (and the ability to kill all of the ferocious Ts), selective breeding to see if you could actually alter the demeanor of a particular breed would be uber interesting!

Not really.......Some of us happen to like our meanies. I'd have to say, my "ferocious" ones (Desirae, the psycho P. cambridgei and my S. cal Lilith) are my favorite girls!!!! I love my Avics, Grammys and B. smithi to no end.......but their tanks are nowhere near as fun to stick your hand in!!!!

 

[Xian]

Not really.......Some of us happen to like our meanies. I'd have to say, my "ferocious" ones (Desirae, the psycho P. cambridgei and my S. cal Lilith) are my favorite girls!!!! I love my Avics, Grammys and B. smithi to no end.......but their tanks are nowhere near as fun to stick your hand in!!!!

You could also breed out the docile ones and work on the more 'mean' ones. lol

 

[splangy]

Yeah, but wouldn't it be fun to see if it actually worked??? Think of what we could learn about them! Obviously, the aggressive ones could still exist. I'm simply suggesting developing a different breed. (just like dogs are all the same species but different breeds have different temperaments... it would be the same with the Ts)

 

[Nerri1029]

Fred Punzo (Spiders: Biology, Ecology, Natural History and Behavior)

Talked about spiders "learning" which direction ( e.g. left or right ) yielded food more often.
If a food item was always placed to the left of the burrow, they would go left far more often. Hence learning.

This stimuli would need to be repeated constantly however.

My memory recalls a time frame of 9 days with out said stimuli and the spider would pick left and right without bias.


So what his research suggests is that spiders have a limited capacity to "learn"

*************************************************

As for ANYTHING that was learned getting passed down through genetics..
show me ONE just ONE paper that suggests this. PLEASE....

 

[Steve Calceatum]

You could also breed out the docile ones and work on the more 'mean' ones. lol

When Desirae is ready, I'll be looking for the meanest male possible for her!!!

 

[Falk]

Tarantulas dont have the social mechanics that can make them tame.
Those words comes from a arachnid biologist.

 

[Falk]

Well I skimmed through(mostly skipped) some of what was said here, so I might be repeating what other have said.


Tarantulas can learn...most people here can testify to that from personal experience. My G. rosea will walk over to the edge of her enclosure and watch me while I feed or perform maintenance on other things. She used to run and hide when I came near her, but now she watches....don't know if she enjoys watching me, or just wants to make sure I'm not messing her stuff up again. Now whether or not they can become "tame" probably depends on your definition of the word. While a tarantula can get used to you; you must ask yourself(with a much more complex brain) would enjoy a giant messing up your bed and letting you crawl around on its hand while other giants stared in aw.

So you mean if you are handeling a tarantula and it never bites its tame or used to you:clap:

 

[kripp_keeper]

So you mean if you are handeling a tarantula and it never bites its tame or used to you:clap:

Once again that depends on how you are defining the word tame.

2. without the savageness or fear of humans normal in wild animals; gentle, fearless, or without shyness, as if domesticated: That lion acts as tame as a house cat.

It may not bite you, but could still be scared or "shy"/nervous. Give it a squeeze, and see what it does.


4. lacking in excitement; dull; insipid: a very tame party.


By this definition my girl is tame. She sits in her hole all day....but.....then she sits in the other side of her hole(hole not burrow). She doesn't really do anything else unless someone walks over by her.

 

[splangy]

That's assuming that a T in the wild would behave differently. I've seen people handle Ts in the wild. They tend to act the same as "domesticated" Ts. Not that I can say this is the case conclusively, I haven't done studies. But I doubt the T behaves THAT differently in the wild than it does in our cages.... idk.

 

[Ms.X]

Yes, the spider did forget it's lesson, but later on after showed no signs of reacting to the tuning fork (Basically it learned to ignore it). However, in science, a single test is not solidified evidence. Numerous tests must be conducted before coming to a proper conclusion. For that test to be taken as fact, it must be run hundreds or times with the same species.. and then it must be run hundreds of times with diferent species. The results must be thoroughly doccumented every step of the way. Only then will the end results (when compared) will be accepted as fact. And ONLY for those species tested.

So where is your study showing genetically based learning occurs "tested hundreds of times with different species"? I would definitely enjoy reading such a detailed experiment, and would like to personally congratulate the authors on their findings, as this would be a major breakthrough in the study of Theraphosidae. I am not an entomologist, but my occupation involves manipulating human behavior. All behavior related reading I've come across applying to entomology has been based on observations of fixed action patterns in response to various stimuli. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken. I personally do not believe that a tarantula is capable of being tamed, but they may indeed become habituated to specific stimuli within controlled environments.