Is there a stage between mature and immature in males?

[AshLee]

My Avicularia versicolor male molted, and I cannot tell if he is mature or not. His anatomy has changed, but he doesn't look fully mature. I've looked him over several times now, and I'm still not sure. There are no signs of hooks whatsoever, which I know are not present on every mature male. (After saying that, I checked him again. At best, there might be the smallest, hardly detectable bumps where hooks should be.) His pedipalps appear to be between the bulbous stage, and how they normally are. I tried to take some pictures, but after reviewing, none are very helpful. I will attempt to take more and post once I have one or more that work.

 

[paassatt]

You can say that he's "penultimate". That's a special-sounding name, I guess.

 

[AshLee]

You can say that he's "penultimate". That's a special-sounding name, I guess.

I've seen the term countless times, but I wasn't sure if that meant they were in any special stage, or just that they're going to mature with the next molt. I've had a handful of males mature, and they have no middle stage, they just mature all at once. Which is why I am not sure what is happening with my Avicularia versicolor, since he isn't obviously mature, but isn't the same as he was prior to molting. I don't want to expect him to molt again if he's already mature, and if he is mature, I want to decide what to do with him now.

 

[SamuraiSid]

^^^ LOL.

A tarnatula is either mature or immature. I think what your refering to is that T's mature slowly and their anatomy develops over multiple molts.

 

[paassatt]

I've seen the term countless times, but I wasn't sure if that meant they were in any special stage, or just that they're going to mature with the next molt.

"Ultimate" means last, therefore "penultimate" means next-to-last.

 

[AshLee]

^^^ LOL.

A tarnatula is either mature or immature. I think what your refering to is that T's mature slowly and their anatomy develops over multiple molts.

I'm aware of that ("either mature or immature.") If you're referring to the title, that's a joke on what I'm experiencing. I am just trying to understand if he IS mature, or is not yet. I don't know if any change in his pedipalps at all signifies that he is mature now, as that has been the only change on him. None of my other mature males developed over time, at all, in regards to their gender.

"Ultimate" means last, therefore "penultimate" means next-to-last.

That, I know. I guess I can't communicate what I mean with that. I am wondering if "penultimate" is determined purely by number of molts and a knowledge that the next is their mature molt, or if there are actually physical changes in the tarantula that show that.

 

[web eviction]

You will know my versi's palps are very clearly male

---------- Post added 04-01-2012 at 04:30 PM ----------

Not the best picture but it may help

 

[PrimalTaunt]

I don't know if any change in his pedipalps at all signifies that he is mature now, as that has been the only change on him.

Tibial spurs on MM Avicularias can be rather hard to see compared to other species'. At least in my experience they have been. If the change that you are referring to in his pedipalps is that they are now boxing gloves then I would suspect that you have a MM and have just missed the hooks. Got any pics of yours?

 

[Stan Schultz]

My Avicularia versicolor male molted, and I cannot tell if he is mature or not. His anatomy has changed, but he doesn't look fully mature. I've looked him over several times now, and I'm still not sure. There are no signs of hooks whatsoever, which I know are not present on every mature male. (After saying that, I checked him again. At best, there might be the smallest, hardly detectable bumps where hooks should be.) His pedipalps appear to be between the bulbous stage, and how they normally are. I tried to take some pictures, but after reviewing, none are very helpful. I will attempt to take more and post once I have one or more that work.

Do not look for tibial spurs to determine if a male is mature or not, or even if it's a male at all. Immature males in general don't possess them, and while in most kinds of tarantulas the males possess them, the list of exceptions is long. (Although if they're really obvious...)

Instead, look for the clubbed pedipalps. In most mature male tarantulas they're fairly obvious, as is the smaller body and longer legs compared to the corresponding female. But, among the Avicularia the clubs are hidden under a little hood, the extension of the next segment towards the body (the tibia if memory serves me properly). So, unless you're looking really closely or actually have the male in your hand, you may not be able to see them clearly.

Hope this helps. Best of luck.

 

[AshLee]

Tibial spurs on MM Avicularias can be rather hard to see compared to other species'. At least in my experience they have been. If the change that you are referring to in his pedipalps is that they are now boxing gloves then I would suspect that you have a MM and have just missed the hooks. Got any pics of yours?

The change in his pedipalps is what I cannot determine, if they are the 'boxing gloves' or not. They look like an underdeveloped version of them, but they're definitely different than they were pre-molt. I didn't manage a clear picture today, and can't try again until morning, as I much prefer natural lighting. Since what I am trying to show is very subtle, thus giving me this confusion, it also makes it difficult to photograph so that you can see what I mean.

Do not look for tibial spurs to determine if a male is mature or not, or even if it's a male at all. Immature males in general don't possess them, and while in most kinds of tarantulas the males possess them, the list of exceptions is long. (Although if they're really obvious...)

Instead, look for the clubbed pedipalps. In most mature male tarantulas they're fairly obvious, as is the smaller body and longer legs compared to the corresponding female. But, among the Avicularia the clubs are hidden under a little hood, the extension of the next segment towards the body (the tibia if memory serves me properly). So, unless you're looking really closely or actually have the male in your hand, you may not be able to see them clearly.

Hope this helps. Best of luck.

I know not to look for the spurs as a conclusion, some mature males won't possess them at all, but the pedipalps are what determine it in the end. Which is why I'm simply confused in this case, since they are different than before, but do not appear to be the bulbous boxing glove-type pedipalps that I have seen many times over. Since his molt was recent, he's just as skinny as he would be mature or not, and the legs just appear longer as they naturally would be after a molt. I've had him both in my hand and under a lit magnifying lamp, and I still wasn't certain. I thought this would be a ridiculous and amateur question to ask, but after two weeks and no conclusion, I wanted to see if anyone else had input.


A question -- could it be that his pedipalps look "underdeveloped" to me because they are not full of sperm yet? This just occurred to me as a possibility. Perhaps they would fill out then? I've had an Avicularia male mature before though, and it was very clear immediately after the molt, obvious hooks and enlarged pedipalps.

 

[Hobo]

I'm going to guess it's mature... Though it should be very obvious if it were so I'll wait for that pic.

The reason they are like "boxing gloves" is because they now have a bulb attatched to the end and tucked underneath. They are quite obvious. These bulbs are hard and will not expand when loaded with sperm. I've noticed on avicularia (and arboreals in general) that they seem to have broader palps on the ends, so the difference between penultimate palps and mature palps may not be as obvious compared to other tarantulas you've had mature. Take a look at it while it's on glass from underneath and compare it to your others. Try looking from the side too. It should be fairly easy to tell.

 

[Zoltan]

That, I know. I guess I can't communicate what I mean with that. I am wondering if "penultimate" is determined purely by number of molts and a knowledge that the next is their mature molt, or if there are actually physical changes in the tarantula that show that.

At least with some species the tarsus (last segment) of the pedipalp becomes visibly swollen in the penultimate stage due to the palpal bulb developing underneath. The palpal tarsus still looks like a "normal" palpal tarsus, it is not modified like on an adult male (cymbium plus bulb), it's just swollen and appears to be thicker/bigger.

 

[AshLee]

I was out of the house shortly after waking up and had the apartment fixed up today, so I didn't get a chance to try photographing again until now. Fortunately, it seems my magnifying lamp was able to properly (or at least decently) get the job done tonight.

At least with some species the tarsus (last segment) of the pedipalp becomes visibly swollen in the penultimate stage due to the palpal bulb developing underneath. The palpal tarsus still looks like a "normal" palpal tarsus, it is not modified like on an adult male (cymbium plus bulb), it's just swollen and appears to be thicker/bigger.

Thank you very much! That is the sort of answer that I was looking for.

Hopefully the pictures will help out a bit.

 

[Hobo]

Just as I thought.
It's mature.... right?
Maybe I should wait untill I can see it from my computer screen.

Edit:
Yup. It's mature!

 

[Stan Schultz]

... Thank you very much! That is the sort of answer that i was looking for.

Hopefully the pictures will help out a bit.

[size=+1]It's a BOY![/size]

Now you need to find him a girlfriend!