is cross breeding possible?

[David Richards]

Hybrids

I hear alot of people saying that you should not sell and that you would not be able to find people to buy hybrids. I have had multiple people emailing me wanting to buy some if mine hatch out. I think to many people are afraid to show interest online in this forum because to many people are bad mouthing the whole thing. Opinions are fine, thing is they are like --- Holes, everybody has one. People telling you not to sell, dont have the right to tell you what to do. The fact is there is nothing wrong with selling them, just represent them accurately for what they are. Of course that's just my "opinion" and i am sure i am going to get reemed for posting it. Funny that people don't get reemed for being against it. later, dave. By the way, I am waiting to see if a sac from a female Brazilian black and white crossed with a male L. Parahybana hatches out. Probably not, but she has been rolling it around for almost a month. We'll see.

 

[PapaRoacher]

I was searching through previous Crossbreeding threads and noticed a consistancy... They're almost all locked...

I suggest we make a sticky for crossbreeding debate, so the board doesn't get cluttered... Because the issue seems to come about far too often...

 

[Sheri]

So far, this one has not required a lock.

Please foreward suggestions to a mod or admin regarding site suggestions.

The debate is a valid one and clearly, pertains to the hobby on a frequent basis.

Provided we can discuss it intelligently, staying within the rules of the site, there will be no reason to lock it.

 

[TheDarkFinder]

I hear alot of people saying that you should not sell and that you would not be able to find people to buy hybrids.

Here is the problem. With orchids, when you hybrid you get a mix of the two parents. This mix means that if one likes dryer conditions and the other one likes wet the baby will either like wet, dry, or both. After a few generations, it would become impossible to tell which parent belong to who. If a hybrid is getting sick, how do you tell what is causing it? With proper databases, you can get all of the parents from a common name. If you name a cross one thing and I name that cross another, who's right.

You sell one hybrid, that person breeds and sells one hybrid, that person breeds and sells one hybrid. Sooner or later someone is going to mislabel some one. Since there is no central database for hybrids there is no way for a person to know what they got, unless you plan on making sure that you keep track of every tarantula you sell and who breeds them. If you do this and one of your tarantulas gets miss labeled as a species, it would reek hell on the breeding programs. Until there can be a group of people that are willing to breed, raise, and do full taxmony on each and every tarantula, Hydrids should not be sold. This is what happened with orchids. Everyone breed with out thought and we lost alot of really valued species. Once hyrids are accepted, and they will be, and the one of the tarantulas societys decides to make sure each cross label, databased, and anylized we should not sell the hybrids. Doing out of interest is one thing, doing it for profit is another. Hybrids will be huge, so starting to breed now is a begining but selling is just making it harder for people like me to gain poplar opinion. No one wants to buy a B. smithi and get a hybrid. Uncontroled hybridizing will cause havoc. We can not even get the species catologed right. IF you have the free time start the project now. Study your slings, watch them grow up. Take pictures and start a database. When the market is really, people who breed species will not stand a chance. A 11" tarantula with a cobalt blue coloring and a B. smithi personality, who would not buy it.
thedarkfinder
P.S. I have the right to ask you not to sell. I care about future of tarantulas. I do not want to see it go the way of orchids. Where every time you buy a untag plant it is a guessing game.

 

[David Richards]

Profit

I enjoy my T's as a hobby but the profit factor is a close second, and is true of most on this board if their honest. Of course anyone who has tried to make money at it knows profit is few and far between, short of being one of the few big shows on the net. There is no scientific reasoning behind the majority of T. breeding i would suspect, in the end most are in it for the money.

 

[BakuBak]

HYBRIDS ARE STERILE!!! is the basis for determining species based on the Biological Species Concept of MAYR/HENNING. For more elaboration on this topic Check the links on Sheri post. Particularly "M"

Cats and bobcats are subspecies, as are lions and tigers.

<edit> Link was already posted>

dont compare life too teory but teory too life

1) hybrids dont need to be between spacies but it can be between morphs as well .
2) taxonomy is an syntetic creation of human not nature ,,, - U cant say that they aint this same spacies only becouse mr.X said that ...

the only way to solv e this problem is maping their DNA and compering

 

[lychas]

it is possible 2 cross different species in the same genus, i have some hybrid slings here, selencosmia "eunice"x"sarina"

 

[TheNatural]

it is possible 2 cross different species in the same genus, i have some hybrid slings here, selencosmia "eunice"x"sarina"

I also have some L.parahybana x L.subcanens slings.

Im very curious about crosbreeding and Im planning to give a try with Grammostola genus. I dont wanna sell them and im not doing it for money, just for myself (and to share with you ).

 

[Nate]

Looking to the future of science it is completely irrelevant in *my* mind. As long as the DNA specimens are properly maintained and labeled everything will be fine. Arachnids should be genetically cataloged a long with every other endangered species, cat and dog.

The future of purchasing a pet will be through labs. Sounds like a scene from Jurassic Park but that’s the direction we are heading. In the next 10-15 years through the advances of stem cell research we will be cloning extinct animals (as long we have viable DNA samples). So, I’m not worried about “Mr. Blow Joe” breeding hybrids for the future of the trade as long as nature can still provide wild species to acquire DNA samples from.

*edit

I have to add I would be pretty mad if “Mr. Blow Joe” sold me a hybrid without informing before hand in any event.

 

[Thoth]

First cross breeding of plants and fertile offspring can't be applied to animals, certain aspects of plant genetics that doen't exist in animals make this possible (polyploidy et c.)

Now it seems like two things are be argued, first whether cross breeding between differnt genus is possibly. It is possible to cross breeding animals within the same family it has been done, albeit with reduced success than if you crossed within the same genus. The other thing is whether or not the offspring are fertile, which is a different matter than whether the parents can breed. For the most part the offspring of two different species being sterile applied to vertebrates, as most of the work was being done with them at the time this rule was made. For the most part it holds true, occasionally there will be a fertile offspring, the beefalo (cow X buffalo) being the most noted example. Though, it took about 100 years of cross-breeding attempts before breeders were able to get fertile offspring. It is unknown whether this rule holds true for invertebrates but assuming it does the frequency of the occasionally fertile offspring individual may be higher due to larger number of offspring that occur per clutch. More work needs to be done to see whether the offspring are fertile.

If done there should be tight control on the resulting slings to prevent dilution of current bloodlines in case they happen to be fertile.

I swear sometimes I think taxonomist make things up as they go along to keep themselves employed.

Though if you want real angry threads about cross breeding go to any dart frog forum and suggest it.

 

[Merfolk]

I think people fear that irresponsible breeders might ruin a 'true' specie gene pool by fraudulently diluting it...and yelling at honest people who wish to experiment honestly won't stop them.

Given the fact that we don't mingle with bloodlines that were meant to remain pure, I would gladly get some hybrids, simply I won't sell them again...

I'd like to see the result of :

A. versicolr X A. Purpurea (or geroldi)
P. Metallica X P. Ornata
Apophysis X Blondi
B. bohemei X B. ruhnaui

and finaly, check if any specie is closely related enough to breed with a Chromatopelma.

 

[spinnekop]

I am surprised that in this thread a comparison with crossbreeding of plants and vertebrates is made. I don't think you can make a comparison between spiders and cats or orchids.
As far as I know, (and this was already mentioned in this thread) crossbreeding between spiders of the same genus is possible but mostly the offspring is sterile. In some cased the offspring are capable of reproducing and this is considered biological prove that the 2 presumed different species are actualy subspecies of the same specie.
For this reason (finding out the weather the spiders are specie or subspecie) crossbreeding might be justified. But it is clear that the sell of crossbreed should be avoided.
It seems that crossbreeding between Poecilotheria's is very easy (but I am not sure weather the offspring is sterile or not). I already saw crossbreeded Brachipelma offered on European fairs. In any case, cross between B. vagans and B. albopilosa give offsprings who are able to reproduce !!!