Inverts & Pain - The Ultimate Thread

[Sterlingspider]

Now, for me, this is definite evidence that insects cannot feel pain in the sense that we can, as eating would surely have been the last thing on its mind. I see no evidence as to why tarantulas may be any different.

You cant use human reasoning or experience as a comparison for anything. We are a unique and complex creature that clearly interacts with this world in a different way from every other creature. Comparing humans and tarantulas is like comparing apples and hovercraft.

No, I do not argue that insects and tarantulas feel pain in the same sense that we can, nor do I argue that they suffer in the same way that we do. They do not have our manner of memory or cognition. They cannot appreciate or cogitate on their pain. They cannot write flowery poetry and cough consumptively into a handkerchief.

By the same token however, you can't assume that because it doesnt have to capacity to react the same way as you do that it is not continually negatively affected by damaging stimuli.

 

[Sterlingspider]

4 me stress is chemical reaction and pain is a feeling ,,,

Pain is a chemical reaction too.

A patch of tissue is damaged. One nerve in a damaged area fires, it starts a chain of nerves firing to send the message to the brain. Eventually (well, in a matter of nanoseconds) this chain tells the brain that there is damage.

That is all that pain is.

It is the idiot light on your own dashboard telling you that somthing is wrong. Nothing more.

 

[MizM]

I don't think we will EVER know exactly WHAT a certain organism feels until that organism can form thoughts and words and speech. Only a T knows what a T feels. I prefer to operate on the assumption that all creatures know comfort and discomfort, and act accordingly.

 

[BakuBak]

I agree in 100%

 

[Mister Internet]

How many times are we going to do this topic? If you search previous discussions on this exact thing (inverts and pain), you will find more of the same... lots of emotional, fact-less posts from people who think that tarantulas do feel "hurt", and factual, rather emotionless posts from people who are far better informed, but whose opinions don't flal in line with the majority's preoccupation with maintaining some type of anthropomorphism about their "cute widdle cuddwy wuddwy fuzzy friends".

It all depends on what you want out of your relationship to these critters... if thinking of them as your family dog makes you feel good, fine, but don't pretend that just because "you think" they feel pain it is a valid viewpoint.

As I said, it has been done here many times before... agree to disagree and keep it civil.

 

[Nerri1029]

If PETA had its way, the entire world population would be vegetarian. That is until some scientist claimed plants feel pain. In that case, if things were decided by PETA, we would all be screwed.

Do I suggest that we go out and torture animals for our entertainment such as Fear Factor, no way. Am I comfortable with the death of an animal for food, you bet.

I'm gonna start MY OWN .. P.E.T.A.

People for the Eating of Tastey Animals...

blood pudding anyone???

who's with me?????


OH yeah.. While I wouldn't tolerate someone abusing an animal.. I DO NOT think they have rights under the law..
THEY DO deserve respect as a living creature..

 

[Malkavian]

I'm gonna start MY OWN .. P.E.T.A.

People for the Eating of Tastey Animals...

blood pudding anyone???

who's with me?????

It's been done before. However I was with them and I'll be with you!

 

[Windchaser]

Nerrie,

I'm with you, but you can have my share of blood pudding. I'll take an extra helping of steak though.

 

[Malkavian]

I've actually never had blood pudding. Would love to try it though

 

[pitbulllady]

Most people have no idea just what "rights" mean. To have rights, in any legal sense, you must have understanding of what acting within those rights means, AND also have understanding that YOU are accountable for your actions. The rights of American citizens, for example, are clearly spelled out in the Constitution. People who fought for those rights did so with the understanding of how important they were, but also with the understanding that rights can be lost when an individual fails to act responsibly within their parameters. For example, I have to right to keep and bear arms(meaning weapons, including firearms), as guaranteed by the Second Ammendment. HOWEVER, if I choose to use a gun in the committing of a crime, I know I can lose that right. There is a big difference between a "right" and "priviledge", by the way.
The issue with so-called "animal rights" is that animals, and especially inverts, simply cannot comprehend what having such "rights" entails. They also cannot be expected to behave within certain parameters within those rights. If I use a handgun to commit a crime, I can lose the right to keep firearms. I am capable of understanding this. The law holds me responsible, as does my own conscience, based upon my moral and ethical background. Having rights is not a guarantee so much as to how *I* will be treated, but a guarantee of what I AM ALLOWED TO DO, within, again, set parameters. What "rights" would a tarantula have? What is it guaranteed, by law, to be able to do? I am not asking what a PERSON would have to do in regards to said tarantula. If the tarantula does not stay within its legal parameters, who holds it accountable for its actions, and in what way? Does anyone actually believe it can understand what its rights are, and make a choice to behave responsibly? If not, then it cannot be said that the animal in any way, shape or form has "rights", not by the definition of such. Does the tarantula have a "right", for example, to bite crickets, but not to bite humans. What if it DOES bite a human-what is to be its punishment, and how will this punishment be decided, and by whom? Will its "right" to bite a cricket be taken away? Will it understand WHY it is being punished?

Now, this does not mean that we, as humans, should be able to abuse other living things, though again, the definition of what constitutes "abuse" will bring many varies responses. We have an ethical and moral obligation to other living things, but this does not mean that the non-human animals have "rights". Again, your rights are a guarantee of what YOU are allowed to do, NOT a guarantee necessarily of how you must be treated, despite the popular lexicon.

pitbulllady

 

[darkeye]

Invert Pain... Did I miss something?

Did I miss some late-breaking news story about Tarantulas and pain (or their supposed inability to feel it)?????

It seems that several posts have had the old standby "T's don't feel pain, so go ahead and blah blah blah". Did CNN run some news story I missed? If you don't believe that a tarantula feels pain, then grab it's leg with forceps and watch it. I had to force autonomy from my E. pachypus after a bad molt, and I'll be damned if it didn't give me the old "Let go of my leg right now" twitch and pull! It sure looked a lot like pain to me.

I have heard the nonsensical argument that states: Invert brains are not complex enough to feel pain.

Ok.

Poke any animal with a stick. Watch the reaction. Poke any invert with a stick. See anything familiar????

C'mon people.

One can argue that the animal is just responding to stimuli and not really feeing pain. Isn't pain just a response to a stimuli? Didn't pain keep our ancestors safe from things like fire and another predator's bite? What more do you need?????

Respect for all living things should be something we all strive for, not marching around assuming that we are superior and therefore have cornered the market on senses. Can YOU smell with your bristles? Can you imagine what it must be like to wave your legs in the air and use the information your brain gets back to determine if food is nearby? A creature with less of a brain than any mammal can. So how can we say it can't feel pain.

We can barely smell our dinner cooking.

 

[NickS1004]

i think youre right.. somehow the animal knows that pulling off a leg is "bad" how would it know to avoid situations like that unless it feels something unpleasent..
i just watched the 1993 documentary "tarantula!" where some natives stabbed a blondi in the heart with a stick to kill it before eating.. and the spider (legs were bundled up with a rope) was trying to reach the stick with its fangs, and was shooting silk and poop all over, the spider didnt look like it was feeling "nothing"

 

[Puppet Master]

well people are ignorant to believe that. Inverts dont feel pain is crap. Like you guys said pull off a leg and see what happens yeah sure they dont scream and cry but they still feel pain.
I think the biggest problem is people watch things like Martha Stewart cooking and watch her take a big butcher knife and cut a live lobster in half and while it is lying their in 2 pieces squirming she says well since a lobster is a invertabret it feels no pain.
I think it is just said people think a living breathing thing does not feel pain.

 

[Rabid Flea]

I totally agree, any animal/invert can feel pain, its totally ignorant to think they can't feel pain. Think about it for a sec... if a T (or any animal for that fact) cant feel pain, then why do Ts throw us a threat display so readily or kick hairs at us... well IMO its because there is this huge creature arount them that has the potential to cause them pain and thus they are trying to avoid it.

 

[David_F]

i just watched the 1993 documentary "tarantula!" where some natives stabbed a blondi in the heart with a stick to kill it before eating..

Well, actually, they didn't stab it in the heart, iirc. Since the heart is in the abdomen and they stabbed it through the sternum I imagine they were going for the "brain" (ganglion) of the spider. But knowledge of tarantula anatomy, more specifically, their nervous system probably isn't important when we're talking about whether or not they can feel pain, right?

There's plenty of info to read, both for and against the idea of invert pain, if you want to base your opinion on something more than gut reactions. Try a google search with the key words invertebrate pain. I'm pretty sure the topic has been brought up here multiple times as well so, yes, you did in fact "miss something".

 

[danread]

I've said everything i'm going to say on this topic in this thread. In particular, read this post.

Cheers,

 

[Cirith Ungol]

I've said everyting i'm going to say on this topic in this thread. In particular, read this post.

Cheers,

Dito. That was a good post, i remember that one. Nice pic and quick thinking on your part to make that experiment!

 

[nightbreed]

I think they can sense damage and will do there utmost to avoid being "hurt" but I dont think they process this information in the same way we do.

 

[Nick_schembri]

I also believe that T's dont feel pain. They dont even have a brain, its just a very small ganglion (a bundle of cell bodies of nerve cells). It is the sensitive hairs on the body of the T, that can sense a stimulus. A stimulus is not necessarily pain. Its just a sensation that triggers the T to react according to the strength of the stimulus. A strong stimulus implies a large animal that cannot be eaten, causing the T to act defensive or run away. So if you poke your T, it is simply reacting to the stimulus.
I cannot prove this as I dont think anyone can, but it makes sense since the nervous system is not advanced enough.
As Cirith Ungol showed in the experiment, it is a logical conclusion that we can make.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

As Cirith Ungol showed in the experiment, it is a logical conclusion that we can make.

Thanks, but it was danread