??? Inbreeding ???

ali-loves-bugs

Arachnopeon
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
11
Hi all!
I've been reading the threads for weeks now and have seen this topic come up several times in other conversations, but no one has addressed it specifically I don't believe.

In the thread about raising a T community it was recommended to have them all be unrelated, so as not to have this problem. Well, I would hope that people were smart enough to not do that anyway.

I have a long way to go before any of mine (that I have so far) are of breeding age, but it made me wonder. Ok, for example, I have 5 slings from Nerri1029's give away as do alot of other people, I know exactly where they came from. If and or when I go to breed them, it won't be with each other, I will buy another or get a loaner. Do I then need to discuss with the owner the T's genetic tree??? I wouldn't want to hook up one of my girls with her own brother, or visa versa!! Or does it really matter? I wouldn't knowingly do it, like with the several sets of mine I know came from the same sac, but what if I buy another and it's from the same one also? Would it really matter? Any need for a family tree? Do I need to get the parental background on all of my slings? Varden would love that pm!!! Too Far fetched? Odds are against it?? Anyone else out there ponder this subject? Have any thoughts? Wanna tell me how ridiculous this thread is?

Oh btw of the 22 T's I own only one was bought at a pet store the rest are all off of the boards here, found better deals and T here, so the rest probably will be too.

I have no life, I guess and my mind wanders all day. Well, actually I think it likes to retreat lately from the 4 kids home on summer vacation!!

Thanks for your time,

Laurie
 

cheetah13mo

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
2,153
I've talked about this before with Charles (Botar) and he said whether you inbreed or not, sometimes you get the deformities and sometimes you don't. Basically in all the breeding he's done, he's not seen a pattern that inbreeding causes problems. Just an F.Y.I.
 

TTstinger

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
310
Inbreeding can be tough as males mature long before females in most cases I am not an expert on this but I believe male's would almost be gone before a female mature

That being if they all came from one sack
 

forhorsmn

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
61
I actually thought that the males matured faster than the females, thus the shorted life span. So I figured when the males are ready to breed, that the females would be still to immature. If I'm wrong, please let me know now . I don't want to look like and idiot.
 

TTstinger

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
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Jan 20, 2006
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310
I actually thought that the males matured faster than the females, thus the shorted life span. So I figured when the males are ready to breed, that the females would be still to immature. If I'm wrong, please let me know now . I don't want to look like and idiot.
read my post again :D :D
 

Drachenjager

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
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3,513
i know of an isolated colony of tarantulas , maybe 50 Ts total . None show any sign of genetic defects . THey are beautiful ts and very docile. I am almost certian they have been inbred for a few generations.
 

Nitibus

Arachnodemon
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
728
Inbreed away. Most of us have done it for years ;)

Why does that NOT surprise me from somone from Southern Missouri... I can just hear it now " Hi I'm Loretta, and this is my Cus-band " ( with banjo music in the background ) :)
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
910
All right going to post the warning now. We should avoid inbreeding, period. If you are doing it just to save some cash or just to do it, don't. From a biological point of view, tarantulas have not been kept and breed long enough to know about the effects of inbreeding are. WE DO know the effects of inbreeding in species like the cockroach, which have proven that inbreeding can lead to some bad traits and colony crashes. We have seen some rumors of inbreed breeding in europe, apparently the males just start to mature quicker until it is no longer possible.

It need to be said that different populations could in theory be more resistant to genetic inbreeding. These would be species like pokies, that have small eggsacks and small home ranges. Species like Brachy's probably have a low resistance.

But be warned inbreeding will cause problems sooner or later. It could cause an population to crash.

The point is that we really do not know. A lot of breeder will say there is no problem. Which may be true or just a guess based on money and time restraints. Since no one has done a proper scientific investigation in to this, no one.

Telling someone to inbreed is like saying "speed up, I see the crash wall ahead, we can always stop in time," then unbuckling your seat belt so if you do hit the wall you will not be a vegetable all your life.

Inbreeding only makes sense from a breeder stand point that has no thought to the future, only wants to make money now, and does not understand the basic principles of biology or inbreeding.
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
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Dec 18, 2004
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910
An now I will have to take some of that back, even in populations of of social spiders, where inbreeding is common, we see signs of inbreeding depression.

http://domingo.zoology.ubc.ca/AvilesLab/reprints/Aviles&BukowskiPRS06.pdf

We obtained evidence of inbreeding depression, in the
form of smaller size and longer development time, but not
survival probability, among spiders that reached maturity
following a period of solitary living (table 1). Inbred
females were significantly smaller as adults than were
outbred females (TPI length 2.8 versus 3.1 mm) and
matured at a later date (68.0 versus 53.7 days); adult
males exhibited non-significant trends in the same
direction (inbred versus outbred males, TPI length: 3.5
versus 3.6 mm, maturation date: 57.2 versus 55.3 days;
see table 1 for significance tests).
Now it needs to be said that all of the "bad" traits have been breed out of this population, they are almost clones. But we still see smaller females and smaller males. The simple fact that there is any difference should be a warning. These spiders evolved to be inbreed.
 

Becky

Arachnolord
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Sep 17, 2006
Messages
642
What about the communal colony of Holethele incei shown around then?? That started with one egg sac dropped into a tank, 70+ spiders. It's still going now! No ill effects or deformities noted i don't think.
 

KingBowser

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
65
I just got through spending an hour of my day reading that old thread regarding inbreeding. I learn ten times more reading a hot debate on a message board than I do in a semester of class. {D

Btw, props to you, Darkfinder.
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
910
What about the communal colony of Holethele incei shown around then?? That started with one egg sac dropped into a tank, 70+ spiders. It's still going now! No ill effects or deformities noted i don't think.
Three(or more) points.

1.) Has it been running for 4-10 generations. Inbreeding will not really come out in just a few generations.

2.) Does incei naturally inbreed, if they do then the effects of inbreeding are usually seen at adulthood, ie short life span, smaller eggsacks, or smaller size.

3.) Did the parents carry a bad gene combination. This is a huge factor. If the parents where lucky and have very few recessive genes then the bad traits will not appear in the slings.

4.) Survivability of the young. For example, if both parent had a genetic weakness to heat, then all of the children do, in a captive environment may not really be a bad thing, but may lead to a specific temperature range.

5.) Has the community been examined to see the effects? If a sack of 70 was dropped in but now females only produce 30? Was any studying been done. I mean age, weight, sex, size, or reproductive success.

Any?, or has it been "look they have been in there for 4 years, wow that is cool."
 
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