Inbreeding, is that ok?

[Olan]

The rate at which makes and females mature does suggest that sibling inbreeding is undesirable long term. Otherwise I don't see why there would be this difference.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Hmm, I wonder if the N. incei was just one instance and it was just not that healthy of the sac. How well the "gold" form is doing in the hobby right now contradicts what his observations were with that species.

With his Brachypelma he has no need to inbreed, he can go collect anytime. I know he does breed other species(non-native), ask him how he knows the Asian stuff he is breeding isn't related.

I am aware the spiders can be smuggled out. But is it worth it for a species that is already well-established in the hobby and being readily bred? No. Not with costs to travel, time to locate and possibility of being thrown in a foreign prison. They really only seem to do it with new species or species not yet in the hobby, were they can at least make their money back, if not fund more trips. The only example I can think of was when pure Poecilotheria smithi males were lost in the hobby. They did manage to bring them back but it was for a reason, not a well established species in the hobby.

In general males mature first before the females mature of the same siblings. Tarantula keepers who has done inbreeding altered the life cycle of the siblings by slowing down the male and power feeding the female to mature faster before the male matures.

My opinion is if your brother wants to inbreed two siblings he should sell the babies listed as the parents of this babies were sac mates. That should also imply to anyone else that is going or have done inbreeding.

Back in the early years of 2000 John Hoke (E-Spiderworld), Jason and Joel (Southernspierworks) have mention that they have seen problems with some species of inbreeding. Avicularia versicolor is another perfect example. Some of these reports I've heard through the years therefore is nothing new to me of people doing inbreeding. If hybridization can alter their genes why wouldn't inbreeding? We know what happen to B. albopilosum that should be a reminder of what we should do and not do.

 

[Angel Minkov]

But that is fake conditions in your environment to create inbreeding. What about in the wild?

EDIT* Or let me fine tune this for brother and sister. We know it is possible if we expand out further.
EDIT* Never mind I should have read the whole thread and I wouldn't have needed to post.

I'm interested to know where, in my original post, did you see me mentioning I was talking about siblings? ^^

 

[Angel Minkov]

If hybridization can alter their genes why wouldn't inbreeding?

Is this a rhetorical question? Hybridisation will obviously alter the gene pool, adding traits which belong to a different species. Inbreeding does not alter their genes, the pool will stay the same. Inbreeding results in homozygous offspring, which causes recessive and deleterious traits to be more common. There are instances where inbreeding is used even with cats - like with Siamese cats e.g True-breeding organisms or alternatively - purebred.

Now, I am no geneticist, but I know who might be of great help and contribution to this topic - Dr. Stuart Longhorn

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Is this a rhetorical question? Hybridisation will obviously alter the gene pool, adding traits which belong to a different species. Inbreeding does not alter their genes, the pool will stay the same. Inbreeding results in homozygous offspring, which causes recessive and deleterious traits to be more common. There are instances where inbreeding is used even with cats - like with Siamese cats e.g True-breeding organisms or alternatively - purebred.

Now, I am no geneticist, but I know who might be of great help and contribution to this topic - Dr. Stuart Longhorn

Le me clarify if hybridization can cause a negative effect on a tarantula why would inbreeding not cause a negative effect on a tarantula?

 

[cold blood]

Le me clarify if hybridization can cause a negative effect on a tarantula why would inbreeding not cause a negative effect on a tarantula?

Because they are two different things, like saying "if I need to keep oil in the car to keep it running, why wouldn't I also need to keep the washer fluid full as well to keep it running."

One is the same sets of genes, the other is two different sets of genes from different animals.

I'm not saying you're wrong long term or that some species will or can be more effected...but just that doesn't appear to be the case with tarantulas as @advan has illustrated.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Hi José, no I dont have any contundent proof that inbreeding can be bad in strict sense. But I know experiencies from people that with species of quick grown as Neoholothele incei has made inbreeding and noticed that crossing siblings from same eggsac reduce their life span, even some spiderlings die sooner. This starts in the third generation.

In the case of Brachypelma at least I think it is not so common in some species due to illegal traffic. I. e. redknee tarantulas was extracted by thousands of specimens and although people think Colima and Guerrero was the same species they cannot be breed because they are genetically distant and male bulbs does not match each other. So it is almost impossible an hybrid of them. The opposite occurs in the case of B. boehmei, B. baumgartemi, B. auratum and B. smithi (Guerrero) which are genetically closed so the possibility to hybridize is high.

Well to corroborate if can exist problems its necessary to made genetic analyses and keep many generations, which is not easy becasue the cost and time. So for now this is uncertain.

In my particular case I dont inbreed because I have a reitroduction project with Brachypelma, as a legal breeder and researcher Im keeping genetic diversity of my specimens, so one male only mate with two females as max, other females mates with different couples. For now I have spiderlings from other two eggsacs from different parents as the ones you will recieve.

Christ, man, is a punch in the eyes that color. But if you did that on purpose good job eh eh

 

[EulersK]

Le me clarify if hybridization can cause a negative effect on a tarantula why would inbreeding not cause a negative effect on a tarantula?

To expand on what @cold blood said, you need to realize that these are different animals. They're not like breeds of dogs; dogs are all the same species, scientificically the same animal. Not so with tarantulas. While G. rosea and G. porteri are very closely related, they are not the same species.

 

[EulersK]

/

 

[Tarantula20]

They're not like breeds of dogs; dogs are all the same species, scientificically the same animal.

If anything has bad effects from genetic traits because of inbreeding its dogs... poor,poor bulldogs...

 

[BobBarley]

If anything has bad effects from genetic traits because of inbreeding its dogs... poor,poor bulldogs...

And all the other breeds that have so many problems. It's really sad IMO.

 

[Tarantula20]

Ya when an animal has to have a C-section to have birth you know somethings wrong.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Inbreeding in invertebrates is not a common issue due to the number of offspring produced and the resulting myriad of combinations of genes. Higher number of offspring means greater chances of at least one individual with good gene combinations surviving to breed. If you assume that inbred individuals with poor gene combinations are those that die early or fail to thrive, you can expect a population to have only individuals that are healthy as those that are less fit, or those that do not produce as many viable offspring, die off. As long as we are not purposely selecting weakened individuals when inbreeding our tarantulas, we should not experience inbreeding depression in most of the resulting spiderlings.

Remember: inbreeding is only an issue if you have a gene or a copy of a gene that has a negative effect. Assuming the founders of the population are healthy and do not have a genetic defect, you should not have any problems inbreeding. The biggest problem with inbreeding is that certain combinations of genes and recessive genes have a higher chance of being paired together. When you inbreed, you don't magically have defects--there has to be a genetic basis. Invertebrates are under such intense selection in the wild that you normally do not see any issues with inbreeding. Sure, there's a chance that a faulty copy of a gene might appear as mutations do occur, but the normal chances of those individuals surviving to reproduce are generally pretty low.

In the wild, inbreeding in invertebrates tends not to have the effect that people expect to see. Take the many Hawaiian species of fruit flies. Hawaii has dozens of new, separate species of fruit flies all descended from the introduction of a small number of a single species of fruit flies from off the island. Inbreeding in this case did not cause the species to die out, but instead resulted in speciation and the evolution of completely new, very successful species.

 

[louise f]

Inbreeding in invertebrates is not a common issue due to the number of offspring produced and the resulting myriad of combinations of genes. Higher number of offspring means greater chances of at least one individual with good gene combinations surviving to breed. If you assume that inbred individuals with poor gene combinations are those that die early or fail to thrive, you can expect a population to have only individuals that are healthy as those that are less fit, or those that do not produce as many viable offspring, die off. As long as we are not purposely selecting weakened individuals when inbreeding our tarantulas, we should not experience inbreeding depression in most of the resulting spiderlings.

Remember: inbreeding is only an issue if you have a gene or a copy of a gene that has a negative effect. Assuming the founders of the population are healthy and do not have a genetic defect, you should not have any problems inbreeding. The biggest problem with inbreeding is that certain combinations of genes and recessive genes have a higher chance of being paired together. When you inbreed, you don't magically have defects--there has to be a genetic basis. Invertebrates are under such intense selection in the wild that you normally do not see any issues with inbreeding. Sure, there's a chance that a faulty copy of a gene might appear as mutations do occur, but the normal chances of those individuals surviving to reproduce are generally pretty low.

In the wild, inbreeding in invertebrates tends not to have the effect that people expect to see. Take the many Hawaiian species of fruit flies. Hawaii has dozens of new, separate species of fruit flies all descended from the introduction of a small number of a single species of fruit flies from off the island. Inbreeding in this case did not cause the species to die out, but instead resulted in speciation and the evolution of completely new, very successful species.

Bullseye