Inbreeding, is that ok?

[EulersK]

I don't understand on why anyone would even consider inbreeding brother and sister of the same sac when there are enough Poecilotheria metallica that are forsale in different sizes.

Well, cost comes to mind. If someone already owns a male and female of the same sac and are able to breed, that's cheaper than buying it or loaning one.

 

[EulersK]

Alright, here's one for you all. Let's keep the speculation coming!

Has anyone bred an offspring male and its mother? Unless I hear of some side effects, I have full intentions of breeding a male offspring and his mother E. truculentus, given she drops a viable sac of course. The males mature in as little as a year and a half, so it wouldn't be particularly hard to spot potential males out of her sac.

 

[louise f]

Alright, here's one for you all. Let's keep the speculation coming!

Has anyone bred an offspring male and its mother? Unless I hear of some side effects, I have full intentions of breeding a male offspring and his mother E. truculentus, given she drops a viable sac of course. The males mature is as little as a year and a half, so it wouldn't be particularly hard to spot potential males put of her sac.

Yes i have. With P.cambridgei last year, she made a nice sac, and heck i still got some of the Youngs. They are healthy and fine.
And i just did it with brother and sister the other day with my Encyocratella olivacea. I dont see any issues with doing this at all.
In nature you can`t really prevent offspring males mating up their mom. Because they do that in pure instinct of survival.

 

[advan]

I don't understand on why anyone would even consider inbreeding brother and sister of the same sac when there are enough Poecilotheria metallica that are forsale in different sizes.

Why does it matter? How many adults came out of India when they were introduced to the hobby? They are all related anyway.

Has anyone bred an offspring male and its mother? Unless I hear of some side effects, I have full intentions of breeding a male offspring and his mother E. truculentus, given she drops a viable sac of course. The males mature in as little as a year and a half, so it wouldn't be particularly hard to spot potential males out of her sac.

Yes, with many species. No issues there either.

See below for people that think brother/sister pairings don't work due to males "growing faster."

All same sac(brother/sister) pairings with young females.(Yes, freshly mature females can also produce good sacs).

Ephebopus uatman

Cyriocosmus ritae

Cyriocosmus elegans

Orphnaecus sp. 'blue' (Panay Island, Philippines)

Same species, female(sister) #2

Psalmopoeus langenbucheri

Haplocosmia himalayana (hatched with mom)

Ornithoctoninae sp. 'hati hati' (Sulawesi, Indonesia) (ex. Cyriopagopus sp. 'hati hati')

 

[EulersK]

Why does it matter? How many adults came out of India when they were introduced to the hobby? They are all related anyway.

Yes, with many species. No issues there either.

See below for people that think brother/sister pairings don't work due to males "growing faster."

All same sac(brother/sister) pairings with young females.(Yes, freshly mature females can also produce good sacs).

Ephebopus uatman

Cyriocosmus ritae

Cyriocosmus elegans

Orphnaecus sp. 'blue' (Panay Island, Philippines)

Same species, female(sister) #2

Psalmopoeus langenbucheri

Haplocosmia himalayana (hatched with mom)

Ornithoctoninae sp. 'hati hati' (Sulawesi, Indonesia) (ex. Cyriopagopus sp. 'hati hati')

Your posts always make me feel better! My female is freshly mature as well, so here's to hoping for a good sac.

It would be interesting to see what genetic bottlenecking would happen over several generations of strict inbreeding. Certainly something would happen over time, but that's such a wild thought experiment that it simply doesn't matter.

I can say that I have a thriving colony of thousands of roaches that are all descendants of a single female and a single male. No apparent issues.

 

[Matabuey]

Your posts always make me feel better! My female is freshly mature as well, so here's to hoping for a good sac.

It would be interesting to see what genetic bottlenecking would happen over several generations of strict inbreeding. Certainly something would happen over time, but that's such a wild thought experiment that it simply doesn't matter.

I can say that I have a thriving colony of thousands of roaches that are all descendants of a single female and a single male. No apparent issues.

It has been shown with other species of spider, that inbreeding negatively affected growth rates and adult body size.

Can't remember what species of spider off the top of my head. But overall it didn't have a huge negative effect - I think. Been ages since I read those papers.

Can find it again if you're interested in reading it.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Well, cost comes to mind. If someone already owns a male and female of the same sac and are able to breed, that's cheaper than buying it or loaning one.

If cost is an issue with some people my suggestion is two to three jobs to manage finances of your tarantulas. I have three different jobs so I can spend my extra funds on spiders.

 

[14pokies]

It has been shown with other species of spider, that inbreeding negatively affected growth rates and adult body size.

Can't remember what species of spider off the top of my head. But overall it didn't have a huge negative effect - I think. Been ages since I read those papers.

Can find it again if you're interested in reading it.

Did the article make mention if it's a case where an unusually small sibling or sib/dam pairing occurred and then was compounded by the closed gene pool or if it was normal size specimens and inbreeding caused the stunted growth?

I feel the findings of the article would be somewhat useful on a thread like this ( more so if it involved Theraphosids) if it's not too much trouble for you I would like to take a peak at it..

 

[14pokies]

If cost is an issue with some people my suggestion is two to three jobs to manage finances of your tarantulas. I have three different jobs so I can spend my extra funds on spiders.

Pfft.. You just want us to work more so we can buy more spiders so you can quit your day job!

Sneaky little Devil!

 

[cold blood]

Why does it matter? How many adults came out of India when they were introduced to the hobby? They are all related anyway.

Yes, with many species. No issues there either.

See below for people that think brother/sister pairings don't work due to males "growing faster."

All same sac(brother/sister) pairings with young females.(Yes, freshly mature females can also produce good sacs).

Ephebopus uatman

Cyriocosmus ritae

Cyriocosmus elegans

Orphnaecus sp. 'blue' (Panay Island, Philippines)

Same species, female(sister) #2

Psalmopoeus langenbucheri

Haplocosmia himalayana (hatched with mom)

Ornithoctoninae sp. 'hati hati' (Sulawesi, Indonesia) (ex. Cyriopagopus sp. 'hati hati')

I've seen you post this before, and it was the first thing that went through my mind when I read your brother's original post...and like @14pokies , was wondering what the set up was


I agree with your assessment of most of our hobby ts being all related anyway....I mean you could make the effort as Jose suggested, get a MM from across the country, and have it end up being basically the same bloodlines anyway. Making the effort to get the "new" male being nothing more than a "feel good" effort.

Every sac I get I save a bunch so that I have males down the line for the AF, which is mom.

As for it happening in nature, I'm pretty sure that's a truth. Just look at the group of B. vagans that was "seeded" in an orange grove in Florida....even after decades, they are still isolated to the same small area, proving that they (at least certain species) never really go too far from where they were born, putting/keeping the males in close proximity to many sisters, aunts and moms to mate with.

 

[14pokies]

I've seen you post this before, and it was the first thing that went through my mind when I read your brother's original post...and like @14pokies , was wondering what the set up was


I agree with your assessment of most of our hobby ts being all related anyway....I mean you could make the effort as Jose suggested, get a MM from across the country, and have it end up being basically the same bloodlines anyway. Making the effort to get the "new" male being nothing more than a "feel good" effort.

Every sac I get I save a bunch so that I have males down the line for the AF, which is mom.

As for it happening in nature, I'm pretty sure that's a truth. Just look at the group of B. vagans that was "seeded" in an orange grove in Florida....even after decades, they are still isolated to the same small area, proving that they (at least certain species) never really go too far from where they were born, putting/keeping the males in close proximity to many sisters, aunts and moms to mate with.

I have heard of this Florida locality also.. If you know where it is PM I'm in FL for the time being.. I'll hook you up!

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Why does it matter? How many adults came out of India when they were introduced to the hobby? They are all related anyway.

Yes, with many species. No issues there either.

See below for people that think brother/sister pairings don't work due to males "growing faster."

All same sac(brother/sister) pairings with young females.(Yes, freshly mature females can also produce good sacs).

Ephebopus uatman

Cyriocosmus ritae

Cyriocosmus elegans

Orphnaecus sp. 'blue' (Panay Island, Philippines)

Same species, female(sister) #2

Psalmopoeus langenbucheri

Haplocosmia himalayana (hatched with mom)

Ornithoctoninae sp. 'hati hati' (Sulawesi, Indonesia) (ex. Cyriopagopus sp. 'hati hati')

How many brothers and sisters were collected? Successful inbreeding has been done for many years already my point is why breed brother and sister of the same sac when there is no need too. I have a chance to eventually mate sac mates of L. polycuspulatus, however why pair a couple of sac mates when I can try with a different bloodline of the same species wouldn't this be a better alternative?
Brachypelma baumgarteni that has been in the hobby has at least three generations of inbreeding I had a chance to purchase them but passed on them for three reasons.
1. I'm against inbreeding
2. Three generation of inbreeding of the species
3. Why purchase a spider that has been inbred for three generations pay a high dollar amount.

The good news is Brachypelma baumgarteni will make a comeback with new captive born stock straight out of Mexico that is now available. I will have my batch tomorrow, these new stock are slings from two wild caught parents. Brachypelma baumgarteni will have a chance if people would dedicate themselves to appreciate a new bloodline and not mix brother and sister and mix them with Brachypelma boehmei. These new stock will also have serial number to keep track of them. So people do your part by keeping this species as pure as possible cause there is another sac of slings from a different bloodline from wild caught parents coming as soon as they are available.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Pfft.. You just want us to work more so we can buy more spiders so you can quit your day job!

Sneaky little Devil!

Well actually I hardly sell tarantulas so I wouldn't be making the money is the other dealers that would be. I don't promote much of selling anymore like I used too. If I was selling a lot of spiders I probably would only have one job or no job at all.

 

[Matabuey]

Did the article make mention if it's a case where an unusually small sibling or sib/dam pairing occurred and then was compounded by the closed gene pool or if it was normal size specimens and inbreeding caused the stunted growth?

I feel the findings of the article would be somewhat useful on a thread like this ( more so if it involved Theraphosids) if it's not too much trouble for you I would like to take a peak at it..

Yeah mate..Let me just find them.

First one is with Stegodyphus lineatus, the one with negatives shown in growth rates and adult size.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...breeding_tolerance_in_a_subsocial_predecessor

And the second one with Oedothorax apicatus showed that inbreeding caused a depression in fecundity and hatching rates.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2006.01280.x/full

I have links to other papers somewhere too, but they all point to different things, depending on what species they're looking at. So i assume it's actually species dependent on how they're affected by inbreeding.

Could easily be tested with some fast maturing tarantulas.

 

[advan]

How many brothers and sisters were collected? Successful inbreeding has been done for many years already my point is why breed brother and sister of the same sac when there is no need too. I have a chance to eventually mate sac mates of L. polycuspulatus, however why pair a couple of sac mates when I can try with a different bloodline of the same species wouldn't this be a better alternative?
Brachypelma baumgarteni that has been in the hobby has at least three generations of inbreeding I had a chance to purchase them but passed on them for three reasons.
1. I'm against inbreeding
2. Three generation of inbreeding of the species
3. Why purchase a spider that has been inbred for three generations pay a high dollar amount.

Majority of your CB spiders are already inbred. How do you get new bloodlines(hemolymphlines?) from closed countries?

Yeah mate..Let me just find them.

First one is with Stegodyphus lineatus, the one with negatives shown in growth rates and adult size.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...breeding_tolerance_in_a_subsocial_predecessor

And the second one with Oedothorax apicatus showed that inbreeding caused a depression in fecundity and hatching rates.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2006.01280.x/full

I have links to other papers somewhere too, but they all point to different things, depending on what species they're looking at. So i assume it's actually species dependent on how they're affected by inbreeding.

Could easily be tested with some fast maturing tarantulas.

I have done 3 or 4 generations inbred with C. elegans with no issues(healthy sacs, healthy offspring etc).

Also check out : O'Dell, G. 2006. Breeding mythology explored in Pterinochilus murinus and other theraphosid species. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 21 (2): 39–46.

How about this quote from Richard Gallon? (for those that don't know him, Brit Arachnologist that specializes in African tarantulas):

"The reports of 'inbreeding depression' in theraphosids date back to the early days - times when successful captive breeding itself was a rarity. In other words, people were quick to blame inbreeding for duff egg-sacs, but we now realise that other factors are often the cause: too dry, too humid etc. Don't believe that overused factoid that small males are the result of inbreeding - total BS given that wild museum specimens can display the same size range.

Lesson of the day - don't extrapolate vertebrate biology to invertebrate examples.

Anybody got a batch of my prolific lobster roaches? Well they were founded on 4 nymphs found in a tub of crickets. I haven't added any other stock to them since I've had them several years ago. They've been through several population bottle-necks where I've over-used the colony, which reduced genetic diversity even more. They are still as prolific as ever and extremely inbred."

 

[Olan]

I think we're touching on some really deep questions in biology here. Why go through sexual reproduction at all? Most roaches reproduce sexually, but some, like Surinam roaches, are asexual (parthenogenic). But these species never go on to be very successful. Typically they are evolutionary dead ends. However, the individuals in these species are quite healthy obviously, and without the mixing of genes that sex provides.
What does this mean for our hobby? Beats me. But I have some sibling B. albiceps slings that I'm now thinking of trying to breed after reading this thread.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Majority of your CB spiders are already inbred. How do you get new bloodlines(hemolymphlines?) from closed countries?

I have done 3 or 4 generations inbred with C. elegans with no issues(healthy sacs, healthy offspring etc).

Also check out : O'Dell, G. 2006. Breeding mythology explored in Pterinochilus murinus and other theraphosid species. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 21 (2): 39–46.

How about this quote from Richard Gallon? (for those that don't know him, Brit Arachnologist that specializes in African tarantulas):

"The reports of 'inbreeding depression' in theraphosids date back to the early days - times when successful captive breeding itself was a rarity. In other words, people were quick to blame inbreeding for duff egg-sacs, but we now realise that other factors are often the cause: too dry, too humid etc. Don't believe that overused factoid that small males are the result of inbreeding - total BS given that wild museum specimens can display the same size range.

Lesson of the day - don't extrapolate vertebrate biology to invertebrate examples.

Anybody got a batch of my prolific lobster roaches? Well they were founded on 4 nymphs found in a tub of crickets. I haven't added any other stock to them since I've had them several years ago. They've been through several population bottle-necks where I've over-used the colony, which reduced genetic diversity even more. They are still as prolific as ever and extremely inbred."

I did ask do you know on how many brother and sisters of the Poecilotheria species were collected? We can't speculate that every CB tarantulas that we have are related from one another sure some are definetly related but not all. And how do we know that new bloodline of Poecilotheria species or of any other genus/species are actually being introduce to the hobby as we speak? We know that the Europeans are able to get stock that we're not able too.

Jorge Mendoza is the taxonomist that is working on the Brachypelma revision I received a few messages from him about inbreeding. He is on a field trip right now collecting in Veracruz and he gave me permission to copy and paste his response.

Hi José, no I dont have any contundent proof that inbreeding can be bad in strict sense. But I know experiencies from people that with species of quick grown as Neoholothele incei has made inbreeding and noticed that crossing siblings from same eggsac reduce their life span, even some spiderlings die sooner. This starts in the third generation.

In the case of Brachypelma at least I think it is not so common in some species due to illegal traffic. I. e. redknee tarantulas was extracted by thousands of specimens and although people think Colima and Guerrero was the same species they cannot be breed because they are genetically distant and male bulbs does not match each other. So it is almost impossible an hybrid of them. The opposite occurs in the case of B. boehmei, B. baumgartemi, B. auratum and B. smithi (Guerrero) which are genetically closed so the possibility to hybridize is high.

Well to corroborate if can exist problems its necessary to made genetic analyses and keep many generations, which is not easy becasue the cost and time. So for now this is uncertain.

In my particular case I dont inbreed because I have a reitroduction project with Brachypelma, as a legal breeder and researcher Im keeping genetic diversity of my specimens, so one male only mate with two females as max, other females mates with different couples. For now I have spiderlings from other two eggsacs from different parents as the ones you will recieve.

 

[Matabuey]

Majority of your CB spiders are already inbred. How do you get new bloodlines(hemolymphlines?) from closed countries?

I have done 3 or 4 generations inbred with C. elegans with no issues(healthy sacs, healthy offspring etc).

Also check out : O'Dell, G. 2006. Breeding mythology explored in Pterinochilus murinus and other theraphosid species. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 21 (2): 39–46.

How about this quote from Richard Gallon? (for those that don't know him, Brit Arachnologist that specializes in African tarantulas):

"The reports of 'inbreeding depression' in theraphosids date back to the early days - times when successful captive breeding itself was a rarity. In other words, people were quick to blame inbreeding for duff egg-sacs, but we now realise that other factors are often the cause: too dry, too humid etc. Don't believe that overused factoid that small males are the result of inbreeding - total BS given that wild museum specimens can display the same size range.

Lesson of the day - don't extrapolate vertebrate biology to invertebrate examples.

Anybody got a batch of my prolific lobster roaches? Well they were founded on 4 nymphs found in a tub of crickets. I haven't added any other stock to them since I've had them several years ago. They've been through several population bottle-necks where I've over-used the colony, which reduced genetic diversity even more. They are still as prolific as ever and extremely inbred."

Is it not possible for it to show up in one genus and not another though?

I have no idea about genetics of tarantulas and how much they differ one genus to another.

I think there actually was supposed to be university in the U.K. that was doing research with t's and regards to inbreeding about 5 years ago - I'm sure i read it was for T's, but i shall ask.

I find it hard to believe that inbreeding depression won't occur with T's, if it is present in other spiders. If so, why are theraphosidae genetically unique to other spiders that inbreeding depression cannot occur?

Maybe it would take 10 generations of inbreeding to show anything significant - who knows. Until a proper study is done on tarantulas specifically, surely it would be wise to try and not directly breed young to their parents continually, and source fresh blood.

But with regards to the closed countries, you and I both know animals are smuggled out all the time. Considering you can get hold of Bothrops insularis, which is on a protected island, getting new blood from closed countries isn't that difficult - if you're willing to spend the money. But obviously illegal.

Although I assume the right people can get exporting rights, if you've got the contacts or money - like with other animals.

 

[advan]

I did ask do you know on how many brother and sisters of the Poecilotheria species were collected? We can't speculate that every CB tarantulas that we have are related from one another sure some are definetly related but not all. And how do we know that new bloodline of Poecilotheria species or of any other genus/species are actually being introduce to the hobby as we speak? We know that the Europeans are able to get stock that we're not able too.

Jorge Mendoza is the taxonomist that is working on the Brachypelma revision I received a few messages from him about inbreeding. He is on a field trip right now collecting in Veracruz and he gave me permission to copy and paste his response.

Hi José, no I dont have any contundent proof that inbreeding can be bad in strict sense. But I know experiencies from people that with species of quick grown as Neoholothele incei has made inbreeding and noticed that crossing siblings from same eggsac reduce their life span, even some spiderlings die sooner. This starts in the third generation.

In the case of Brachypelma at least I think it is not so common in some species due to illegal traffic. I. e. redknee tarantulas was extracted by thousands of specimens and although people think Colima and Guerrero was the same species they cannot be breed because they are genetically distant and male bulbs does not match each other. So it is almost impossible an hybrid of them. The opposite occurs in the case of B. boehmei, B. baumgartemi, B. auratum and B. smithi (Guerrero) which are genetically closed so the possibility to hybridize is high.

Well to corroborate if can exist problems its necessary to made genetic analyses and keep many generations, which is not easy becasue the cost and time. So for now this is uncertain.

In my particular case I dont inbreed because I have a reitroduction project with Brachypelma, as a legal breeder and researcher Im keeping genetic diversity of my specimens, so one male only mate with two females as max, other females mates with different couples. For now I have spiderlings from other two eggsacs from different parents as the ones you will recieve.

Hmm, I wonder if the N. incei was just one instance and it was just not that healthy of the sac. How well the "gold" form is doing in the hobby right now contradicts what his observations were with that species.

With his Brachypelma he has no need to inbreed, he can go collect anytime. I know he does breed other species(non-native), ask him how he knows the Asian stuff he is breeding isn't related.

Is it not possible for it to show up in one genus and not another though?

I have no idea about genetics of tarantulas and how much they differ one genus to another.

I think there actually was supposed to be university in the U.K. that was doing research with t's and regards to inbreeding about 5 years ago - I'm sure i read it was for T's, but i shall ask.

But with regards to the closed countries, you and I both know animals are smuggled out all the time. Considering you can get hold of Bothrops insularis, which is on a protected island, getting new blood from closed countries isn't that difficult - if you're willing to spend the money. But obviously illegal.

Although I assume the right people can get exporting rights, if you've got the contacts or money - like with other animals.

I am aware the spiders can be smuggled out. But is it worth it for a species that is already well-established in the hobby and being readily bred? No. Not with costs to travel, time to locate and possibility of being thrown in a foreign prison. They really only seem to do it with new species or species not yet in the hobby, were they can at least make their money back, if not fund more trips. The only example I can think of was when pure Poecilotheria smithi males were lost in the hobby. They did manage to bring them back but it was for a reason, not a well established species in the hobby.

 

[Jeff23]

They mature faster when kept in the same conditions. I can slow down my male Poecilotheria enough that they molt once every 6-7 months or more even at around 3'' And all that just by tweaking their feeding schedule.

But that is fake conditions in your environment to create inbreeding. What about in the wild?

EDIT* Or let me fine tune this for brother and sister. We know it is possible if we expand out further.
EDIT* Never mind I should have read the whole thread and I wouldn't have needed to post.