Imagine MY Surprise

[Mack&Cass]

Forgive my ignorance (I admire snakes but not enough to have ever seriously considered getting one) but you've brought up a question that I've had about feeding.

Why do most keepers do the frozen/thawed thing? Is it to prevent injuries to the snake? To give the mouse a quick death as opposed to the snake? Do you buy them pre-killed or kill them yourself? And how will you go about transitioning from live to frozen/thawed?

We personally feed F/T to avoid injury to our snakes. We breed our own mice and kill them with either cervical dislocation or CO2, depending on how many we're killing. If we only have one or two to kill that we plan on using right away we just use cervical dislocation, but if we are killing a large number we drag out our gas chamber. We've only had to switch one of our snakes from live to frozen/thawed and it wasn't too hard, I find we're having more trouble switching the type of food. We recently bought a bunch of rat pups for our snakes that were previously on adult mice and our ATB and female BP are being particularly finicky with the switch.

pitbulllady, I'm so glad he ate for you! He has a stunning iridescence to him, there are healthy BRBs that I've seen that haven't had that much iridescence.
Good luck with him, he's in good hands now.

Cass

 

[GiantVinegaroon]

Like other people have said....keep in the low to mid 80s on the warm end....and keep humidity up.

Awesome find! I LOOOOOOVE the BRBs.

 

[pitbulllady]

We personally feed F/T to avoid injury to our snakes. We breed our own mice and kill them with either surgical dislocation or CO2, depending on how many we're killing. If we only have one or two to kill that we plan on using right away we just use cervical dislocation, but if we are killing a large number we drag out our gas chamber. We've only had to switch one of our snakes from live to frozen/thawed and it wasn't too hard, I find we're having more trouble switching the type of food. We recently bought a bunch of rat pups for our snakes that were previously on adult mice and our ATB and female BP are being particularly finicky with the switch.

pitbulllady, I'm so glad he ate for you! He has a stunning iridescence to him, there are healthy BRBs that I've seen that haven't had that much iridescence.
Good luck with him, he's in good hands now.

Cass

I second what you said about feeding f/t mice. Mice can do a lot of damage to a snake...OR a snake keeper. I actually had to make a trip to the ER one morning when a mouse I was holding by the tail to feed to a finicky Coachwhip turned around and nailed me on the index finger, biting all the way down to the bone, severing an artery and a lymph node. My entire hand swelled up like I'd been bitten by a Copperhead and I actually lost quite a bit of blood, as well as a couple of really nice rings which had to be removed with wire cutters in the ER due to the swelling happening so fast that I could not take the rings off. No risk of that happening with frozen mice! I'm also very allergic to rodent dander, and frozen mice don't bother me nearly as badly as live ones, although I still must be very careful to thoroughly wash my hands after taking them out to thaw and after feeding snakes. I can't tolerate being inside a building where there are live mice or rats, and after finding this particular snake in that mouse-infested house I have had recurring asthma. If I'd known that the rodents had been so bad I'd have worn a face mask, but oh, well. Once I got there it was too late.

But yes, this particular little snake, while not having the best coloration, does have some really nice iridescence on him. I can hardly wait to see what he looks like once he's back in good condition and right after he sheds!

pitbulllady

 

[J.huff23]

I am SO jealous right now. That is a darn nice looking snake. And to just FIND it, get it for FREE....when will I get that lucky? Lol.

After I read the post I scrolled down to the picture and let out a long sigh of jealousy. Awesome. Take good care of Him (I know you will ) He is a very special little man.

 

[RoachGirlRen]

Yay! I'm SO happy he's eating

 

[kingfarvito]

but if we are killing a large number we drag out our gas chamber.
Cass

I don't know if you don't realize this or something but CO2 is an awful way to kill feeders horribly cruel and akin to drowning them CO (carbon monoxide) is the gas that slowly luls them to sleep because hemoglobin sees it as oxygen

 

[Mack&Cass]

I don't know if you don't realize this or something but CO2 is an awful way to kill feeders horribly cruel and akin to drowning them CO (carbon monoxide) is the gas that slowly luls them to sleep because hemoglobin sees it as oxygen

Gassing with CO2 is one of the approved methods of euthanasia in Canada, which is why we use it. Whenever we use that method to kill our mice they're always dead in no more than 5 minutes. If it's so horribly cruel, I don't see why it would be an approved method. It's currently being revised to see if it should remain acceptable, and if it is deemed too cruel then we will make adjustments as needed.

I've done my research, I know the debate, but I will continue to use the acceptable methods until it's been proven that it is too cruel and becomes unacceptable.

Cass

 

[kingfarvito]

Gassing with CO2 is one of the approved methods of euthanasia in Canada, which is why we use it. Whenever we use that method to kill our mice they're always dead in no more than 5 minutes. If it's so horribly cruel, I don't see why it would be an approved method. It's currently being revised to see if it should remain acceptable, and if it is deemed too cruel then we will make adjustments as needed.

I've done my research, I know the debate, but I will continue to use the acceptable methods until it's been proven that it is too cruel and becomes unacceptable.

Cass

would you drown a feeder?

 

[Crysta]

would you drown a feeder?

... I don't think its the same as drowing, the mouse isn't really expending extra energy trying to stay afloat, which usually causes the terror of dying, but with co2 they don't really know what's going on and just die.

 

[kingfarvito]

... I don't think its the same as drowing, the mouse isn't really expending extra energy trying to stay afloat, which usually causes the terror of dying, but with co2 they don't really know what's going on and just die.

they just know that they cant breath.....if you don't believe me mix some baking soda and vinegar, or get some dry ice and try to breath CO2 (with supervision of course) not trying to be mean I just don't think feeders should suffer and was turned from it when I realized it was making them suffer

 

[vitaminmandi]

Wonderful things happen to wonderful people. Kudos on getting snakes out of peoples' homes.

 

[pitbulllady]

they just know that they cant breath.....if you don't believe me mix some baking soda and vinegar, or get some dry ice and try to breath CO2 (with supervision of course) not trying to be mean I just don't think feeders should suffer and was turned from it when I realized it was making them suffer

I've watched many, many rodents being put down with CO2, and I have never seen them give any indications of panic or suffering. They just lie down and go to sleep and stop breathing. It's very quick.
Actually, there have been several instances in which humans were overcome by CO2, including those in which two notorious volcanic lakes in Africa "belched" out a huge cloud of CO2 gas, which quickly spread over the landscape, killing most animals and people. People who survived reported only suddenly feeling very sleepy and light-headed-no pain, no sense of urgency or fear. Both CO2 and CO(Carbon Monoxide)are well-known as "silent killers" which induce rapid unconciousness and death. CO2 is the ONLY approved means of euthanizing laboratory rodents in the US since it kills very quickly and painlessly and does not interfere with drugs that might be tested on the animals prior to death. There is no other quick means of killing several hundred rodents at the same time. Drowning takes many minutes and the animals struggle and panic as they try to stay afloat, biting each other in their panic. I've tried using that method to put down large rats, and a rat can actually hold its breath under water for nearly 15 minutes! I would hardly call that a "humane" death, and I vowed to never do that again to any animal. On top of that, it leaves their fur soaking wet, so when they are frozen, they will all stick together in one huge icy clump, making it impossible to pull out a given number from the bag for thawing without tearing bodies apart and rendering them pretty much useless as snake food. The only means of putting down feeder rodents that is quicker is cervical dislocation, but this can also get rather bloody and messy and most buyers of frozen rodents do not want a bloody carcass to have to thaw out, and it's not at all practical for putting down large numbers of rodents, such as commercial breeders have to do. If you know of a better way to quickly and humanely put down hundreds of mice or rats at a time, that does not make a big mess and is still practical for preparing the rodents for packaging and freezing and shipping, I'm sure that the rodent breeders would love to know about it.

pitbulllady

 

[Rex Libris]

Hmm. When I was in school we nearly euthanized a number of humans with CO2. The dry-ice 'fog' for our terrible production of 'Brigadoon' sunk into the orchestra pit and caused the musicians begin to lose consciousness, brass section first. We chased the strings and percussion sections off, but had to drag most of the brass players and a number of woodwinds out. They were easy to revive once removed to the fresh air and required no medical attention.

None of them complained that it had been painful or unpleasant. They had passed out before they knew anything was wrong. Most were too daft to even be frightened.

Orchestra pits may be poorly ventilated, but they are not meant to collect as dense a fog of CO2 as the chambers used to euthanize animals. I imagine a proper chamber would have worked even faster.

I doubt there is any more humane way to do it. I spoke to these people, and it was for them as pitbulllady described. No fear, they went from feeling fine to a little light-headed to falling over in a matter of under two minutes. It was the conductor, an adult, who knew what was happening and what would happen if they remained there, who was upset.

 

[RoachGirlRen]

CO2 is an AVMA accepted method, and in when properly carried out, it is quite humane. Most "suffering" that occurs in CO2 euthanasia is when it is done incorrectly: for example, introducing a very high concentration immediately rather than a low concentration until the rodents have lost consciousness. This can cause distress and in rats especially result in eye irritation, and does indeed result in the "panic" and suffocation you described. However, a proper procedure is very much humane; the rodents become woozy and lose consciousness as they would with most any other gas anesthesia, and at this point, the concentration is raised to a lethal point.

I also agree 100% with pitbulllady: feel free to share with us the secret to 100% humane mass euthanasia. Even cervical dislocation, which granted is quicker than CO2, is not what I would call strickly "humane." Have you ever performed CD? The proper restraint for it is very distressing for the rodent, moreso in my experience then gently picking them up and placing them in a gas chamber. Have you ever seen an improperly performed CD? It's a lot nastier than a few moments of suffocation. Heck I've seen plenty of dogs pooping themselves in terror on a vet table and yelping in pain while they're injected with those oh-so-humane euthanasia injections.

In short: death is not a pleasant event, for anything, ever. But I'd venture to guess that a properly performed CO2 gassing is a heck of a lot more humane than having your body punctured by fangs and being violently constricted. And it's a heck of a lot safer for the snake, so it ultimately benefits both animals involved in the unfortunate but wholly unpreventable act of predation.


Sorry for contributing to the de-rail. Back on the actual topic at hand:
Out of curiosity, do you suppose the snake was abandoned by the owners in the building, or was an escapee/stray/etc. that found refuge there? I ask because I was under the impression that the species isn't exactly cheap, so I'm almost surprised that they wouldn't have sold it rather than abandon it. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised as I've known horses and purebred dogs that cost much more than snakes to have been neglected and abandoned. It just struck me as odd. SO pleased it's on the mend either way.

 

[pitbulllady]

CO2 is an AVMA accepted method, and in when properly carried out, it is quite humane. Most "suffering" that occurs in CO2 euthanasia is when it is done incorrectly: for example, introducing a very high concentration immediately rather than a low concentration until the rodents have lost consciousness. This can cause distress and in rats especially result in eye irritation, and does indeed result in the "panic" and suffocation you described. However, a proper procedure is very much humane; the rodents become woozy and lose consciousness as they would with most any other gas anesthesia, and at this point, the concentration is raised to a lethal point.

I also agree 100% with pitbulllady: feel free to share with us the secret to 100% humane mass euthanasia. Even cervical dislocation, which granted is quicker than CO2, is not what I would call strickly "humane." Have you ever performed CD? The proper restraint for it is very distressing for the rodent, moreso in my experience then gently picking them up and placing them in a gas chamber. Have you ever seen an improperly performed CD? It's a lot nastier than a few moments of suffocation. Heck I've seen plenty of dogs pooping themselves in terror on a vet table and yelping in pain while they're injected with those oh-so-humane euthanasia injections.

In short: death is not a pleasant event, for anything, ever. But I'd venture to guess that a properly performed CO2 gassing is a heck of a lot more humane than having your body punctured by fangs and being violently constricted. And it's a heck of a lot safer for the snake, so it ultimately benefits both animals involved in the unfortunate but wholly unpreventable act of predation.


Sorry for contributing to the de-rail. Back on the actual topic at hand:
Out of curiosity, do you suppose the snake was abandoned by the owners in the building, or was an escapee/stray/etc. that found refuge there? I ask because I was under the impression that the species isn't exactly cheap, so I'm almost surprised that they wouldn't have sold it rather than abandon it. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised as I've known horses and purebred dogs that cost much more than snakes to have been neglected and abandoned. It just struck me as odd. SO pleased it's on the mend either way.

I suspect that the snake was most likely an escapee, though whether it escaped from the former occupants of the house or a neighbor's is impossible to know. They ARE rather expensive snakes and given the neighborhood it was in, it was just odd to find it there. This was an older, more low-income part of town. I wouldn't have been that surprised to find some cheaper, more commonly-available snake like a normal Ball Python, something you can get in any pet shop, but a Rainbow Boa was a shock, to say the least! Knowing what escape artists snakes can be, especially a quick, agile species like this, it's not hard to imagine it escaping from some poorly-designed, make-shift enclosure. I was told that the house's occupants had moved out at the end of March, and there had been a reptile show in Columbia earlier that month, so I suspect this was the source of the snake, since if I recall, there were a LOT of BRB's and even more CRB's at that show. I know I've never seen one in any of the local pet shops, so it either came from the show, or the people ordered it off the internet.

pitbulllady

 

[dtknow]

LMAO at the production story! I've always wonderd if that has ever happned!

Good thing the conductor was so alert.

 

[Rex Libris]

LMAO at the production story! I've always wonderd if that has ever happned!

Good thing the conductor was so alert.

It was sort of hard to miss. Those who had to lose breath to play went down with thumps and clatters and amusing sour notes before those who could breathe whenever they wanted regardless of the music felt much of anything. We were lucky -- if we'd deployed the mist while nobody was playing they might have all passed out more or less at once and perhaps it would have been a very horrifying accident.

In light of what RoachGirlRen says, I'm wrong about the orchestra pit being a less than ideal euthanasia chamber. It was perfect, except for the animals inside being the wrong ones. (At the very least, the group did not include the lead tenor, who was spectacularly awful.)

We had to rent a smoke machine, trashing the show's budget. And then everybody whined about how irritating the smoke was.

 

[pitbulllady]

I'm happy to announce that the BRB is now eagerly taking f/t mice off of tongs! Previously, he would not pay any attention to them if I was even in the same room; I'd just come back a bit later and find the mice gone and that tell-tale bulge in his middle, but yesterday he actually struck and grabbed one off the tongs. He's still very thin, but he has had a bowel movement and it looked like normal Boid poop, nothing about it to raise suspicions that anything other than long-term food deprivation and low humidity is to blame. I'm really eager for him to pick up some weight so I can take some more pics that won't make me feel ashamed of having such a scrawny, malnourished animal that others will feel I'm to blame for if they didn't know better. I'm hoping to eventually get him onto small rats, since as an adult-sized snake he's really going to be too big to continue to eat mice, but right now I just want to get him back into proper body weight for his length.

pitbulllady

 

[PrimalTaunt]

Happy to hear the little guy is doing well.

And it's a bit late but thanks for replies to my questions.

 

[pitbulllady]

New Pics! Thought I'd take him outside today and try to chase down some sunlight(it's been very overcast and muggy, with thunderstorms every day, for the past week or so)to try to highlight his iridescence. He's definitely putting on weight, even though there is still a lot more backbone visible than I'd like to see on a Rainbow Boa(it would be fine if he were an ATB or a Mangrove Snake), but I can tell there is a lot more "heft" to him than before when I hold him. He is still a very calm snake and barely moves when I have him out of his enclosure.

pitbulllady