Idea...if you are a breeder read this...

[AllenG]

Ok, I am sure this has been addressed before but I was thinking...


Has anyone attempted to domesticate T's? By Domestication I mean breeding out the bad and keeping the good...mainly when it comes to temperment.

Ok...before you explode off the deep end...it would be a simple formula with lets say some Pterinochilus sp. that would in no way mess up the species (well not really ) or cause any dirtying of bloodlines.

But we take a DOCILE Pterinochilus sp. aka "Usumbura Orange"...and i mean DOCILE...maybe to the point she can be held without being bitten, unless of course human error, i.e. startle the T. Ok so we get this lovely in our possesion. (and she would of course have to be a beautiful specimen as well...strong colors..strong body so on.) We will call her Eve!

So we have Eve, now we need an Adam if you will. We find a DOCILE Pterinochilus sp. male or 6 (the more the merrier). The he's would have to be beautiful in the best sense of the word...I mean not your average T from the species, but that one hardy, strong large docile beaut! Ok so we have a few of these males.


Now we attempt to breed them (I don't know the CB success rate with this species, but none the less, one could try). So we breed...a LOT as much as the female will take...and as much as the males can give.

We set them aside until they are ready to breed again, whenever that is.

Now enter the hopefully LOTS of slings. We give it time...until they are obviously sexable....but keep them distinctively marked. (is that a word? lol). Now after some time (domestication took forever!) we begin testing the slings...for temperment, we watch their attitude, I know it can change with age in all spiders...but we focus on attitude. We start seperating the hair throwers, from the aggressives...so on so forth..getting very granular...we pull the beautys away from the norms. Eventually to sex them...we want females especially from the original bloodline of Adam and Eve and males come in variety, as long as they meet the minimum look and attitude requirements. Now we keep this going for oh 100 years...(or as long as we can keep it going.)


Do you see where I am going with this....we keep the females from Adam and Eve and keeping bringing in new males. So that original bloodline remains. Well IDEALLY, in the end when our grandkids are old enough to start passing on the project, we would have a pure bred(if it could still be called that) Pterinochilus sp. but with a docile attitude and BRILLIANT colors!

Thoughts, problems, concerns, and arguments please.

A project of this magnitude would hopefully be revolutionary to see if you could breed out the aggressiveness or defensiveness of a species of T...almost domesticating it, for lack of a better term. I could not however see a downside to this idea, minus cost, time and effort. It would require a group of breeders and enthusiasts to keep the T's moving through and health...plus you want to keep the Adam and Eve bloodline moving. Though eventually it would be minimal due to the breeding of other "bloodlines" in with the original. But you would have to bring in outside males to the "A&E" Pterinochilus sp. females to stop inbreeding.

Ok...has this ever been tried or discussed...I think this could turn into a great topic. And you never know, maybe someday it could be tried.

 

[TheWidowsPeak]

sounds like a project well worth trying, but it would take a lot of time and money.

 

[AllenG]

but can you think of any problems, or ethical issues of such a project?
and yes this would be a hand-me-down project to the kids or other enthusiasts over the years...and many years it would be!

 

[Paladin]

i dont know about u but i love my PMS bug (obt) the way it i...but it is a good idea, would take forever to finally produce a purely docile t tho

 

[skadiwolf]

i agree. i might be possible...you certainly see it able to happen with snakes but it would take a long time unless the breeder actively sought to do this.

i think mainly there is no point to it. i mean, if docile, domesticated Ts were the only ones that would sell, then perhaps you'd have breeders trying for this.

however, just like there isn't really a call for CB millipedes, there isn't a call for CB, domesticated Ts.

in fact, some people would say that the personalities of the more aggressive Ts are part of their charm.

now...i wouldn't call it 'charm' persay, but it does certainly get the blood pumping.

 

[TheWidowsPeak]

no, the way I see it is your not gonna hurt anything by doing this. I also don't se what the big deal is about hybridising. I know 90% of the time youll just get an ugly spider or an eaten male, but hey as long as your not selling them then whats the problem.

 

[AllenG]

Originally posted by skadiwolf
however, just like there isn't really a call for CB millipedes, there isn't a call for CB, domesticated Ts.

in fact, some people would say that the personalities of the more aggressive Ts are part of their charm.

now...i wouldn't call it 'charm' persay, but it does certainly get the blood pumping.

That was my other concern, that I didn't mention. The fact would anyone want this...the only reason I would see this as MAYBE is because some of the really great looking T's are aggressive, and you endanger yourself (only slightly if you are responsible) every time you try to open the cage to water or vice versa.

Though I agree, I would suspect the people that would most disagree with this kind of idea would be those that like the danger, or more so, like the attitude of there big bad Pterinochilus sp. or any other breed for that matter.

 

[AllenG]

Originally posted by johnnyjohnjon
no, the way I see it is your not gonna hurt anything by doing this. I also don't se what the big deal is about hybridising. I know 90% of the time youll just get an ugly spider or an eaten male, but hey as long as your not selling them then whats the problem.

Well I was hoping to not mesh this with hybridising, because I would prefer a pure bred myself...but there are other threads on that subject. But for now I want to focus on the ethics, and idea of this, though I see the point you are making...but we need more opinions to get the enthusiasts' consesus on the matter.

Don't get me wrong though, I want EVERYONE's opinion.

 

[Exodus]

Since I live 5 minutes away, I can help!!! Woot. Go for it!

 

[AllenG]

Lol Ben, my wife would not approve of a Pterinochilus sp. let alone a ton of them...hehehe...one day maybe...hopefully soon

 

[skadiwolf]

i see nothing wrong with it at all ethically...what is your dilemna? it certainly wouldn't be harming the Ts at all and it would make a supply of a new, CB, docile T that previously wasn't available to wimps like me.

i think it's a really good idea and i'm SURE there would be some takers out there when you got the actual docile T results. just think...they could take out their impressive, formerly only-aggressive Ts, show them, maybe even HOLD them.

if i could get some of the Poecs that were docile (rather, if some were...) then i would be thrilled and definitely go for it. as it is, i'm sticking with docile baby...

it isn't just the aggressiveness that worries me, but the faster a T is and the more aggressive, the more nervous i might be in recapturing it and i have quite a few animals that i'm sure would find a roaming T quite delicious.

 

[AllenG]

Well, you are a prime example of why it might be a worth while project. It would be great for me as well. I could have a non-aggressive, beauty like a Pterinochilus sp., and a wife that didn't want to hurt me more then the T. wanted to bite me. :}

As for my "dilemna", I have none. I was more interested in the idea, and any possible controversy it may cause like breeding hybrids does. Curiousity has plagued me forever!

 

[skadiwolf]

i don't know about others but i don't like the idea of hybrids, it just overcomplicates something already complicated.

i'm also a reptile keeper and most of us are completely anti-hybrid. in addition i keep birds and well, ditto...especially because some parrots are going extinct in the wild and the thought of hybridizing them instead of breeding more 'true' examples of the species is just disturbing.

i say go for it! let me know when you have your first docile 'aggressive' species.

 

[AllenG]

Originally posted by skadiwolf
i say go for it! let me know when you have your first docile 'aggressive' species.

Haha...will do. :} <-- what a great smiley

 

[Mendi]

In some respects there are already "domesticated" tarantulas. Look at the Brachypelma species. None are legally taken out of Mexico any more and they've been very successfully captive bred for several years. I'm fairly sure there have been some planned breeding for brigher reds and larger sizes, though to what success I don't know. I doubt though that tarantulas can ever become truly a domesticated animal, as they will always be able to find food and feed themselves if they are released. They've been doing it for some 350 million years and that is a lot of wiring for us to overcome to make them a domesticated animal like a dog or horse.

I do think with selective breeding, we can manipulate certain traits and eventually get calmer attitudes, or brighter reds, even larger body sizes within the species we are breeding selectively.

As for hybridizing them, I'm not for it. Nature has already given us close to 850 different species, and we would be very hard pressed to make a "mule" that is better than what nature has already made. And if the deal with hybrides holds true as it does with most animals, they offspring are likely to be sterile, making it kinda useless. Sure you could likely breed certain Aphonopelma species and have productive offspring. But this type of breeding often muddies the appearance of both the species into a less attractive creature.

I'm all for work on making pTerrors less a terror and even brighter orange. I'd love an OM that didn't fling itself onto it's back in fits of rage just having water poured into its dish.

 

[AllenG]

Well let's see...does anyone know anyone (lol) that has a Pterinochilus sp. that can be held or is not agressive?

Because now that I think about it, is there any dociles of the breed out there?


As for hybrids, I would really ask that we leave that subject alone, it is very touchy and I don't want this thread "muddied" by its discussion, just "domesticating". ;P

On a side note, are there any other breeds out there that are magnificant looking but highly aggressive or defensive? (doubt the wifey would let me have 1 Pterinochilus sp., let alone...oh 50 in my house hahahaha!)

 

[Crotalus]

Altering wild animals to our own needs are to me not good. The reason why I keep snakes, spiders etc are their own behaviour that interest me. If you begin to alter them for temperament or coloration you always end up with inbreeding and thats not good at all.
I have kept many asian and african species that wasnt particular aggressive at all, it depends alot on how you keep them and on the individual.
And lots of them were moody, they changed in temperament just as many snakes do.
If its just colors that interest you when keeping tarantulas - then I guess you would want a less aggressive Pterinochilus. But then again, the Brachypelma redknee types are far more beautiful so I dont see a need to alter any t for our own need.

/Lelle

 

[AllenG]

I can understand your argument. But wouldn't you think it would be great for the hobby, if you could get people to take interest in some of the species they usually would have nothing to do with, because they are docile now(after "domesticating"). Though you have a very valid argument.

Of course, inbreeding would be highly avoided by bringing in outside males, which would make the proccess take much longer. But ideally inbreeding would be avoided at all costs...

 

[Crotalus]

Im not sure it would work either cos temperament is much different to colors etc. But no i dont think it would do the hobby any good.
When the experience of the keeper grows after a while he/she feels more secure and knows how to deal with the more feisty species such as Pterinochilus ssp.
Its such a variety of species with different colors, temperament, size aso that the domestication are pointless. Nature have already done the job - and I dont think we humans can improve it. That goes for hybrids aswell.
Just my opinion.

/Lelle

 

[Phillip]

a slight problem with your idea....

Even if temperment in Ts is a breedable trait ( which I kind of doubt due to the primitave animal thing ) the main problem you would run into is this. Some snakes have been bred for temperment as have many other animals but this takes several generations to breed true in most cases. With Ts there simply aren't that many breedings going on to expect that we have reached the point to selectively breed for any traits let alone temperment. Perhaps when they have begun to be hatched out by hobbyists to the degree that some snakes are this would be a workable idea but at this point I just don't see it.

Phil