ID strange saw-fin-backed bug

[Stylopidae]

I'm not sure where Ted heard that they were in the top five most painful insect bites, but they do look as though they can give you a wicked bite (which I'm sure they could!). I'll occasionally pick them up if I see one outside. They act as though they'd rather run away than pick a fight with your hand. We have these big sweat bees that like to crawl all over me after I've been cutting grass all day - everybody else says they get stung by them, but I've not once gotten stung

-Sarah

And you never shall. What you are seeing is most likely a syrphid fly, a nonvenomous dipteran which has evolved warning coloration to look like a hymenopteran.

The only thing I could imagine your friends getting stung by is a member of the halictidae family, which are known to be attracted to persperation. They are, in fact hymenopterans.

 

[-Sarah-]

And you never shall. What you are seeing is most likely a syrphid fly, a nonvenomous dipteran which has evolved warning coloration to look like a hymenopteran.

The only thing I could imagine your friends getting stung by is a member of the halictidae family, which are known to be attracted to persperation. They are, in fact hymenopterans.

What has been landing on me are definitely not flies, that's for certain. I've seen the stingers on them, trust me - they're bees, and I can get stung They resemble the metallic green bees of the halictidae family you mentioned, except they're entirely black, no coloring whatsoever. They're friendly enough to me; it's just the rest of my family that complains of getting stung by them.

-Sarah

 

[lucanidae]

How did you conclude she was seeing Syrphidae? Nothing in her explanation clues to that family....and that common name is most always for the Halictidae.

 

[Stylopidae]

How did you conclude she was seeing Syrphidae? Nothing in her explanation clues to that family....and that common name is most always for the Halictidae.

99 percent of the time when people mention sweat bees, they are talking about syrphidae. People don't generally look too far past warning coloration.

Seriously. Take pictures of a vespa sp, a syrphid and a halactid, go to the nearest Wal*Mart and ask people to classify them.

Probably a good 80 percent of the time, people will classify the yellowjacket and the hoverfly together.

 

[lucanidae]

Look at her explanation though, solid black (which many halictids are) that resembles the bright green ones? Nothing in there about actually looking like a bee or warning coloration. Also, syrphids like pollen and flowers, they don't tend to fly around people too much.

99 percent of the time when people mention sweat bees, they are talking about syrphidae. People don't generally look too far past warning coloration.

Seriously. Take pictures of a vespa sp, a syrphid and a halactid, go to the nearest Wal*Mart and ask people to classify them.

Probably a good 80 percent of the time, people will classify the yellowjacket and the hoverfly together.

Did you know that 65% of statics are completely made up?

I don't have to go to Walmart...I TA an Introduction to Entomology class, and while many students do confuse these groups...it's when the specimen in question actually exhibits bee-like coloration. It really can't be considered warning coloration in the Syrphids because they have nothing to warn of, it's just Batesian mimicry.

 

[Stylopidae]

Look at her explanation though, solid black (which many halictids are) that resembles the bright green ones? Nothing in there about actually looking like a bee or warning coloration. Also, syrphids like pollen and flowers, they don't tend to fly around people too much.

Ummmm...why do I have to mention that she described the creature in detail after I made my initial guess?

Granted I was making a guess without any sort of ID info at all, but I think I should at least get points for knowing enough to narrow it down to the two most likely options.

Did she mention any sort of description before the post I quoted?

If so, I didn't see it. I don't see any description in the post I quoted, either.

Although, you're right...I often use the term 'warning coloration' to describe Batesian mimicry. They're not exactly the same thing. Warning coloration is often an example of Mullerian mimicry...so they're not exactly the same thing.

I should probably stop doing that.

If anybody reading this is wondering what the hell I'm talking about, Batesian mimicry is what happens when a harmless animal evolves a color scheme which is similar to an animal that is harmful. In this case, many syrphid flies have evolved a yellow-on-black color scheme that many wasps share.

In contrast, Mullerian mimicry is when one large group of potentially harmful organisms share the same trait. There are many bees and wasps which share the same white, yellow, black or red striped color scheme...textbook Mullerian.

Mimicry is a cool example of evolution .

 

[thedude]

im gonna add my 2 cents in here, ive bin stung by a large female T. Hawk but it only hurt for a few mins, it's like getting shocked and then burnt, the local ichneumons in PA almost hurt worse than them, and ive known people (not just saying this) who owned a little insect "zoo" and the got tagged by a Platymerus sp and i watched him get on his knees and cry becouse of it... i bet it doesnt help how thick the proboscis is either?and we all know how the bullet ants are lol...id have to say assasin bugs would have to be atleast a 2 on the top 5 most painful insect bites then a bullet ant at 1 and pepsis sp at 3... and if you wnna start talking about painful bite w/o venom try getting bit by a 1 inch tiger beetle(bin there done that) ne way im talking insects here not centipedes or Ts

 

[-Sarah-]

Wow. Who would have thought my post would have caused that sort of response

Last time I went for a ride on a motorcycle with an open-faced helmet, a wasp managed to lodge itself between my scalp and the helmet. The little bugger got me 3 times before I could grab it with my fingers and pull it out. That was not fun. I've never been bitten by any tiger beetles, but we have these nasty Pine Sawyers (Monochamus scutellatus) around here that look like they can give you a nice pinch as well as Eastern Dobsonflies (Corydalus cornutus). Those things are wicked - I've almost gotten nailed by them before; and my brother's gotten bit by a male... Ouch

-Sarah

 

[Ted]

Yeah...I've never heard of this species causing necrosis.

Secondary infection, maybe...but not necrosis AFAIK.
Quote:
When disturbed, the wheel bug can inflict a painful bite. The bite has been described variously as worse than stings from bees, wasps, or hornets. Barber (1919) and Hall (1924) described in detail the effects of such bites. In general, initial pain often is followed by numbness for several days. The afflicted area often becomes reddened and hot to the touch, but later may become white and hardened at the puncture area. Occasionally, a hard core may slough off, leaving a small hole at the puncture site. Healing time varies buusually takes two weeks and may take half a year. Smith et al. (1958) reviewed the literature concerning wheel bug bites and concluded that serious or prolonged effects from these bites usually are due to secondary infection or an individual hypersensitivity.

its not a pinch, it's a dangerous bite.
They have very powerful digestive peptides..
the wound will hurt for a long time and may not heal for 5-6 months..and usually scars from necrosis.

hopefully my claim, which was prefced as ''i had read,'' i think, was not too far off.
as far as the bite..it could be possible that pain should be measured on an individual scale, and not a standardized one.
i am almost certain that the source i got my memory from, had been one of the few who may have subjected themselves to a variable of bites and stings.

i dont know for sure, but as far as the damage and effect, it appears i described it pretty well.



i got bitten by a much smaller assassin[black corsair] and it rotted a quarter inch circle out of my thumb, and was excruciating.
i fully expect that the wheelbug is capable of even worse damage.
this, also , can/and should be considered on an individual level.

i've been stung by asps, a blood sucking cone nose bug[including severe reaction] and velvet ants as well..


the asp was pretty bad, and caused loss of arm mobility for a few days..lots of throbbing and numbness.
the velvet ant was super painful for a short period with little after effects.


other peoples accounts with these species differ greatly..and can reasonable be sure that it might be even worse than i described, for a many people.

I, too, would rather get bit by one of those than a Titaneus Giganteus.

 

[Stylopidae]

Okay...Ted: I am not denying that they are not measured on a standardized scale, however that article also says bites with lasting effects are not the norm. They are the exception, usually due to secondary infection or individual hypersensitivity. I highlighted this in my initial post. You are essentially taking the source out of context...right after I highlighted that vital part of the post. The very source you highlighted goes on to say that the majorly bad reactions are the exception, not the rule. You are mischaracterizing the information by reading into the paper what you want to read and ignoring the sentence directly after it which contradicts your previous statement by discussing how rare the types of reactions you described are.

Numbness for a few days and a warm red spot are about as bad as the bites ever get. Maybe some hardening, maybe a bit of sloughing of dead flesh. A bit worse than I thought but certianly not nearly as bad as the image of a huge, gaping hole you painted. The article says the wounds normally take about 2 weeks to heal. It takes a .5 cm superficial wound caused by a broken gas station door about 4 to 7 days to heal, by comparison (on me, five).

Not a good academic move.

The bites you are 'not far off' in describing are essentially the same thing as somebody needing hospitalization after a bee sting. These bites are generally painful, and may take a little while to heal. However, they are not as powerful or destructive as many other insects.

Either way there are many, many bugs which cause more pain and mechanical damage than Arilus christatus. This depends on whether or not we're talking about all arthropods or just insects...but even with just the insects, they're still nowhere near the top. They're upper-midrange at best in terms of pain.

 

[Ted]

Okay...Ted: I am not denying that they are not measured on a standardized scale, however that article also says bites with lasting effects are not the norm. They are the exception, usually due to secondary infection or individual hypersensitivity. I highlighted this in my initial post. You are essentially taking the source out of context...right after I highlighted that vital part of the post. The very source you highlighted goes on to say that the majorly bad reactions are the exception, not the rule. You are mischaracterizing the information by reading into the paper what you want to read and ignoring the sentence directly after it which contradicts your previous statement by discussing how rare the types of reactions you described are.

Not a good academic move.

The bites you are 'not far off' in describing are essentially the same thing as somebody needing hospitalization after a bee sting. These bites are generally painful, and may take a little while to heal. However, they are not as powerful or destructive as many other insects.

Either way there are many, many bugs which cause more pain and mechanical damage than Arilus christatus. This depends on whether or not we're talking about all arthropods or just insects...but even with just the insects, they're still nowhere near the top. They're upper-midrange at best in terms of pain.

i still say very few people have been bitten, even fewer have reported it to anyone taking notes, and data concerning bites is scarce at best.
not enough for either opinion to be solid.
i stand by my opinions as well as my description.
i also stick to my though that this pain scale can be only assessed by those who have actually have been bitten or stung by countless specimens of varying species
not by a few people here and there ..
admittedly, i have a short list of personal accounts of bite stories, but others may have worse luck, or are more ambitious.
and since i never said it always happens, although i did say usually,it was
erroneous perhaps, but i dont agree with your analysis of their potential, either.
i did not see anywhere where they said its rare, and not the norm.
can you link me to that?
i see them using words like''often, in general, and occasionally''
not terms of absolute rarity, if i were reading this correctly.

 

[Stylopidae]

i still say very few people have been bitten, even fewer have reported it to anyone taking notes, and data concerning bites is scarce at best.
not enough for either opinion to be solid.
i stand by my opinions as well as my description.
i also stick to my though that this pain scale can be only assessed by those who have actually have been bitten or stung by countless specimens of varying species
not by a few people here and there ..
admittedly, i have a short list of personal accounts of bite stories, but others may have worse luck, or are more ambitious.
and since i never said it always happens, although i did say usually,it was
erroneous perhaps, but i dont agree with your analysis of their potential, either.
i did not see anywhere where they said its rare, and not the norm.
can you link me to that?
i see them using words like''often, in general, and occasionally''
not terms of absolute rarity, if i were reading this correctly.

Okay, fine. I'll repost the original post here and link to my first post:

When disturbed, the wheel bug can inflict a painful bite. The bite has been described variously as worse than stings from bees, wasps, or hornets. Barber (1919) and Hall (1924) described in detail the effects of such bites. In general, initial pain often is followed by numbness for several days. The afflicted area often becomes reddened and hot to the touch, but later may become white and hardened at the puncture area. Occasionally, a hard core may slough off, leaving a small hole at the puncture site. Healing time varies but usually takes two weeks and may take half a year. Smith et al. (1958) reviewed the literature concerning wheel bug bites and concluded that serious or prolonged effects from these bites usually are due to secondary infection or an individual hypersensitivity.

If the bites were anywhere near as bad as what you're saying, these buggers would have a reputation just as bad as L. reclusa. What you are characterizing the average bite as counts both as serious and prolonged.

If someone is hypersensitive, they react to a given substance in a matter worse than most of the general population. In other words...RARE...NOT THE NORM. UNCOMMON. It is a term which by definition compares one person's reaction to the rest of the general populace.

I'd say there is enough information here to make a decision.

Secondary infection shouldn't be considered a direct result of the bite as it is not related to any sort of substance injected, rather a collection of micro-organisms which happen to be clustered on the tip of the rostrum.

Do you want me to look up the Smith paper?

Smith FD, Miller NG, Carnazzo SJ, Eaton WB. 1958. Insect bite by Arilus cristatus, a North American reduviid. Archives of Dermatology 77: 324-333

I'm an entomology student and I'm pretty certian we have at least one professor who is studying reduviidae here.

 

[Ted]

Okay, fine. I'll repost the original post here and link to my first post:



If the bites were anywhere near as bad as what you're saying, these buggers would have a reputation just as bad as L. reclusa. What you are characterizing the average bite as counts both as serious and prolonged.

If someone is hypersensitive, they react to a given substance in a matter worse than most of the general population. In other words...RARE...NOT THE NORM. UNCOMMON. It is a term which by definition compares one person's reaction to the rest of the general populace.

I'd say there is enough information here to make a decision.

Secondary infection shouldn't be considered a direct result of the bite as it is not related to any sort of substance injected, rather a collection of micro-organisms which happen to be clustered on the tip of the rostrum.

Do you want me to look up the Smith paper?

Smith FD, Miller NG, Carnazzo SJ, Eaton WB. 1958. Insect bite by Arilus cristatus, a North American reduviid. Archives of Dermatology 77: 324-333

I'm an entomology student and I'm pretty certian we have at least one professor who is studying reduviidae here.

please do look up whomever you can..i am always eager to learn more.

i still feel that any current data is scarce and subjective and no conclusive, so any decision to be made is based on subjective data.
severe reactions can occur..and necrosis can occur,many months of healing can also occur, and it is super painful.
we will just have to disagree on a few things..as i know various entomologists myself..some very good ones too, so my collective knowledge and personal experiences are still valuable.

thats a good start.

 

[froggyman]

regardless of the effects i still doubt that you'd want to be bit by one.
cheshire would you mind directing me to some links on Titaneus giganteus
any bug that could amputate or break a finger has to be pretty interesting.

 

[Ted]

regardless of the effects i still doubt that you'd want to be bit by one.
cheshire would you mind directing me to some links on Titaneus giganteus
any bug that could amputate or break a finger has to be pretty interesting.

google them..they are the biggest beetles..not heaviest.
but can bite a ballpoint pen in two

 

[beetleman]

google them..they are the biggest beetles..not heaviest.
but can bite a ballpoint pen in two

:clap: :drool: now that's an ass whoppin beetle!

 

[Ted]

:clap: :drool: now that's an ass whoppin beetle!

no doubt!!
they are considered rare, though..and horribly expensive to obtain.
i might be getting one this year through a friend..but who knows.

 

[Stylopidae]

Females are not attracted to any sort of light...so the one you will be getting will most likely be male. I don't know that females have ever been caught (wouldn't surprise me, though).

Now...remember, this article was published in a dermatology journal. I'm not a dermatologist, so it may take awhile to pull this up.

However, you need to know exactly what the process of peer review is...and I don't think you do. Actually, if there is a peer reviewed article that says any reaction beyond redness and numbness for a week or two is an abnormal reaction and you're arguing with it...I know you don't.

Publishing in a medical journal or an astronomy journal isn't like getting published in National Geographic. They don't check a few minor facts and figures and look for spelling mistakes. Instead they pour through your data and research, look for flaws and try to tear it apart as much as they can. It's not a pretty or friendly process.

If the Smith paper was based on any sort of subjective or inconclusive evidence, it wouldn't have been published. Plain and simple. This is how peer review works and this is the purpose of peer review. Granted, it was published in '58...but I don't think the venom of A. christatus has changed at all in that time, especially if a university website is citing the data.

The necrosis and any healing time over a few weeks are certianly not the norm. Rather, they represent a vast minority of the data. Probably an amount similar to allergic reactions from the venom of hymenopterans.

 

[Ted]

Females are not attracted to any sort of light...so the one you will be getting will most likely be male. I don't know that females have ever been caught (wouldn't surprise me, though).

Now...remember, this article was published in a dermatology journal. I'm not a dermatologist, so it may take awhile to pull this up.

However, you need to know exactly what the process of peer review is...and I don't think you do. Actually, if there is a peer reviewed article that says any reaction beyond redness and numbness for a week or two is an abnormal reaction and you're arguing with it...I know you don't.

Publishing in a medical journal or an astronomy journal isn't like getting published in National Geographic. They don't check a few minor facts and figures and look for spelling mistakes. Instead they pour through your data and research, look for flaws and try to tear it apart as much as they can. It's not a pretty or friendly process.

If the Smith paper was based on any sort of subjective or inconclusive evidence, it wouldn't have been published. Plain and simple. This is how peer review works and this is the purpose of peer review. Granted, it was published in '58...but I don't think the venom of A. christatus has changed at all in that time, especially if a university website is citing the data.

The necrosis and any healing time over a few weeks are certianly not the norm. Rather, they represent a vast minority of the data. Probably an amount similar to allergic reactions from the venom of hymenopterans.

thats fine and great.
however..
i still say that any data concerning bites and the effects of are scarce and inconclusive, as well as highly subjective.
as i said..few people are bit, and those who are rarely report it.
what you're posting sounds like very limited data based on a few accounts..similar to what i posted.


i still dont see where the effects i mentioned are considered beyond norm.
based on my personal experiences with Hemipterid/Reduviidae bites,I am sticking to my opinion.

so we're in disagreement..I've seen alot of poor information coming out of so called ''peer reviews'' thanks.

do you know that untill the late 60's black widows were not considered venomous..peer reviews can be as wrong as they are right.

 

[Stylopidae]

do you know that untill the late 60's black widows were not considered venomous..peer reviews can be as wrong as they are right.

Prove that. Post one reliable source that says that.

You see, the antivenin for black widows was invented in 1956 by a man named Struan Sutherland. If scientists thought the latrodectus genus wasn't medically signifficant, there would be no need for antivenin. I've never read anything similar to what you've just written.

From arachnophiliac:

This is probably the best known 'dangerous' spider. Found throughout the world, including America, New Zealand and Australia. The female is the one responsible for biting humans (the males are considered to be harmless, as they can't pierce the skin). There have been recorded deaths attributed to it. It is known by a number of common names: Katipo (New Zealand) and Red Back (Australia). An antivenin was developed in 1956 and is effective if used within 80 hours.

The most frequently encountered of this species are: L. mactans and L. hesperus.

Either way I've posted at least a smidgen of data backing up my opinions, while the only thing you've done is ignore the last half of the paper and discounted anything that disagrees with your preconcieved notions, saying 'I've seen bad information come out of peer reviews' as your only defense.

While I'm not doubting peer reviewed papers are occassionally inaccurate, you've posted nothing so far which can lead me to believe you've even read one peer-reviewed journal article on the subject of invertebrate envenomation. Posting blatantly false information doesn't help your case, either.

I've highlighted in bold and made the text huge that says the type of necrosis you're telling me is common is, in fact rare. Anybody who reads that paragraph will conclude the same thing.

Hell...your treasured necrosis isn't even an effect of the venom, rather a side effect from a secondary infection. There might be a little tissue damage, but I highly doubt there would be an open wound associated with the bite as a direct result of the enzymes.

Also, there is no way that wheel bug bites are even in the 'top 10' list for painful envenomation. I could name 30 insects which have physical symptoms worse than anything I've read in the Arilus literature. This is only one article, out of maybe 10 I've read with bite information and they all say essentially the same thing. Healing time...a month maximum in all but extreme cases. Some redness, some numbness, maybe some sloughing but definitely no necrosis except in some extreme cases.