I tried to drive a spider insane, once (over handling)

[kylestl]

I have a WC A hentzi that is the calmest tarantula I have. I use her as a way to educate people coming to my house. Many people have came in my house scared of T's but sometimes they will even hold it before they leave. Tarantulas do calm down becasue she went from being a wild tarantula to my calmest T. I wouldn't go as far as to say they learn but they just get used to it. I have no probelms with her feeding and as you can see in the picture she is doing great. I haven't seen her kick a hair in I don't know how long. Before anyone says anything, The population of where I caught her is doing great. Any questions or comments (sarcastic ones are welcome too) just say it.

 

[Fran]

I don't believe they recognize or remember either. I beliebe they adapt. the useage of words are very important in this discussion, as it greatly changes the meaning of ones post. I am fully aware they are very primitive creatures, but even the most primitive can adapt to new living conditions. It's how they survive. If you don't evolve, you don't survive. Simple as that.

And the arguement that they are animals is just irrelevant, as we are too. We are highly EVOLVED animals. We've evolved to survive, as I believe even arachnids can do. Some do give them too much credit, I believe you give them too little.
And what do you mean "out of pure reason"? And honestly, that's not the problem here. Really, there is no problem. It's a discussion.

You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.

The tarantula keeping hobby began around the 80's.
In 30 years theres not possible "taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating" .
Maybe in 30.000 years, and with creatures as simple as T's is very doubtful.

Let me remind you that the dogs, creatures LIGHT YEARS more evolved than arachnids, took over 15.000 years to domesticate as the dogs we have today.

For those who saying that some of us might give too little creit for not believing that they can be happy in your hands, and they love to be handle and runn arround the
room...Well, yes, then indeed Im giving them veeery little credit.

 

[Falk]

In discussions like this the experience of keepers could be just as good, because this is strictly a behavious issue, and you don't need a degree to observe the behaviour of the animals you're keeping.

Scientists who works with these animals probably have better understandings and have been studying the behavior of these animals in an educated way more than the hobbyist.

Well if they every creature can adapt to handeling explain venomus snakes then, they will bite at you everytime to you try to pick it up.
Imo if you handle birdspider a lot you will probably give them a shorter life due to stress.

No one can say its not stress ful to be proded out of the enclosure to an unfamiliar place and then have to walk on sombodys hand.

Besides that theraphosids havent evolved for thousands of years.

 

[AbraCadaver]

You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.

The tarantula keeping began in the 80's.
In 30 years theres not possible "taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating" .
Maybe in 30.000 years, and with creatures as simple as T's is very doubtful.

Let me remind you that the dogs, creatures LIGHT YEARS more evolved than arachnids, took over 15.000 years to domesticate.

For those who saying that some of us might give too little creit for not believing that they can be happy in your hands, and they love to be handle and runn arround the
room...Well, yes, then indeed Im giving them veeery little credit.

You're twisting my words completly. I never compared them to humans, I merely pointed out that we too are animals, which have survived because we have evolved. I never said they were happy to be handled, or loved it, I said some may tolerate it because they've adapted to it.

I mean you give them too little credit because it IS believed they can indeed adapt to handling. Again, I don't say enjoy, but ADAPT.

And this is exactly what I mean about being stubborn. You have completly twisted my words into a meaning I did not convey, to make it fit your crusade against handling. But alas, we will never agree, so I can't be bothered anymore. I'm sure all you will get out of this post is that I say they're taking over the world next...

 

[Fran]

You're twisting my words completly. I never compared them to humans, I merely pointed out that we too are animals, which have survived because we have evolved. I never said they were happy to be handled, or loved it, I said some may tolerate it because they've adapted to it.

I mean you give them too little credit because it IS believed they can indeed adapt to handling. Again, I don't say enjoy, but ADAPT.

And this is exactly what I mean about being stubborn. You have completly twisted my words into a meaning I did not convey, to make it fit your crusade against handling. But alas, we will never agree, so I can't be bothered anymore. I'm sure all you will get out of this post is that I say they're taking over the world next...

Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????

You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
And this is a problem, when you start acting childish with your last coments, this is not an argument anymore but in fact a pain in the butt.

PS: Im not a Biologist, but plase get the facts stright. You can adapt in a matter of minutes to a new situation, a new enviroment. An arachnid doesnt work that way.
Not in the way is suggested here.

 

[AbraCadaver]

Scientists who works with these animals probably have better understandings and have been studying the behavior of these animals in an educated way more than the hobbyist.

Well if they every creature can adapt to handeling explain venomus snakes then, they will bite at you everytime to you try to pick it up.
Imo if you handle birdspider a lot you will probably give them a shorter life due to stress.

No one can say its not stress ful to be proded out of the enclosure to an unfamiliar place and then have to walk on sombodys hand.

Besides that theraphosids havent evolved much since the last thousands of years.

Even venomous snakes can adapt certain behaviours. I never said the adaptations was limited to handling. I was talking of adaptations in general.

But seeing as the spider can think, feel, adapt or basically anything besides poop and eat, they can't possibly be stressed, now can they?

And with the scientists, I don't see how it can possibly be a must to have a degree to look at a spider, and see that it doesn't defend itself. Honestly, I am all for good hard facts in pretty much every case concerning tarantulas, but this is just silly. You are strongly contradicting yourself. If they are so simple they can't even adapt to the simplest of things, surely their behaviour needn't be studied by scientists?

 

[Lisa Gayle 713]

Hey, kylestl, I hope my A. hentzi grows up to be half as beautiful as yours someday! What a cutey!

And, congratulations on educating people about T's. "Knowledge is power." Hopefully, those folks will be less likely to hurt a T if they encounter one outside....

 

[AbraCadaver]

Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????

You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
And this is a problem, when you start acting childish with your last coments, this is not an argument anymore but in fact a pain in the butt.

Excuse me, but where is your science report on the contrary then?

As I stated, I NEVER said they enjoy it, I NEVER said they loved it. That's what I mean with twisting. In my last post I even wrote it plain and simple "I'm not saying they enjoy it", and still, in an answer to that post, you drag that into it again.

Childish? For disagreeing with you? For saying I think you might be a bit stubborn?

Yes, perhaps my "you'll say they're taking over the world next" comment was uncalled for, but again, if that's the only thing you got out of that post, you're clearly not paying much attention to what I say.

I never said it took minutes? I never stated any time frame, so again, no cigar.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Says who? Wheres is the scientific research that says that those tarantulas who are handled are adapted to it?
And if there is some sort of adaptation,(maybe managing to walk around your hands? ) what in the world does that have to do with being happy, loving and enjoying, as previously stated????

You have no facts behind your statements. No twisting here, is simply, no facts. :?
And this is a problem, when you start acting childish with your last coments, this is not an argument anymore but in fact a pain in the butt.

PS: Im not a Biologist, but plase get the facts stright. You can adapt in a matter of minutes to a new situation, a new enviroment. An arachnid doesnt work that way.
Not in the way is suggested here.

wheres yours?

the problem is simple.
there has been NO behavioral studies done period, for either pro, or con side. so it is up to the owner, to Judge the response of the tarantula. and since the 80s they continue to survive within captivity with handling without it. etc.

the entire arguement I agree is mute, however, there is no point in arguing the comments and opinions of those posting. tallying perhaps to at least come to some common variables. but not sensless bashing.

 

[Fran]

wheres yours?

the problem is simple.
there has been NO behavioral studies done period, for either pro, or con side. so it is up to the owner, to Judge the response of the tarantula. and since the 80s they continue to survive within captivity with handling without it. etc.

the entire arguement I agree is mute, however, there is no point in arguing the comments and opinions of those posting. tallying perhaps to at least come to some common variables. but not sensless bashing.

Again pick up a Biology book ,ANY serious source and you will realize that animals as simple as arachnids simply can not adapt in the fashion here is suggested.

 

[Fran]

Excuse me, but where is your science report on the contrary then?

As I stated, I NEVER said they enjoy it, I NEVER said they loved it. That's what I mean with twisting. In my last post I even wrote it plain and simple "I'm not saying they enjoy it", and still, in an answer to that post, you drag that into it again.

Childish? For disagreeing with you? For saying I think you might be a bit stubborn?

Yes, perhaps my "you'll say they're taking over the world next" comment was uncalled for, but again, if that's the only thing you got out of that post, you're clearly not paying much attention to what I say.

I never said it took minutes? I never stated any time frame, so again, no cigar.

Well, suggesting that tarantulas have adapted to our handling in roughly 30 years it is like minutes, in the "bug" adaptation world.

Yes, Im stubborn because what you are suggesting, or better yet, what some people is here suggesting is simply an insult to any Zoologist/Biologist/Scientist.

And yes, to make such affirmation you need a degree.
All the opinions should be respected, but most certainly not valued the same.

 

[AbraCadaver]

Wow.. Just..Wow..

 

[Falk]

Even venomous snakes can adapt certain behaviours. I never said the adaptations was limited to handling. I was talking of adaptations in general.

But seeing as the spider can think, feel, adapt or basically anything besides poop and eat, they can't possibly be stressed, now can they?

And with the scientists, I don't see how it can possibly be a must to have a degree to look at a spider, and see that it doesn't defend itself. Honestly, I am all for good hard facts in pretty much every case concerning tarantulas, but this is just silly. You are strongly contradicting yourself. If they are so simple they can't even adapt to the simplest of things, surely their behaviour needn't be studied by scientists?

They can have a hard time just adapting to a new enclosure, it can take weeks sometimes. Im not sure how the birdspider brain works but i think they live on primitive instincts

If adapting means digging a new burrow in a new enclosure i say yes, but getting used or adapting to handeling i say no.

 

[Falk]

Abra check out the swedish bugforum and spend a few minutes reading krydolf´s posts.
She is a spider biologist and probably knows alot more than you and me together.
You also have the suberb T-store forum witch have alot of experienced keepers. Ask them what they think, but im pretty sure they wont agree with you

 

[DrAce]

Right,

As a scientist, albeit the wrong type, I think it's important to step in a little and just set a little of what we know down, versus what we really can't be sure of.

Tarantulas are not robots. They make decisions based on a number of variables. Their level of hunger, or thirst (which is governed by humidity and temperature), their stage in life. Their activity level. The availability of food. All of these influence what a tarantula does.

Now, will they acclimatize over time... virtually all animals do to some extent. Heck, bacterial colonies exhibit this sort of behaviour.

Does that make them 'trainable'? No.
Do they all have unique behaviours? Yes.
Are they 'thinking'? Who knows... probably not the tarantula.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Again pick up a Biology book ,ANY serious source and you will realize that animals as simple as arachnids simply can not adapt in the fashion here is suggested.

going on that theriom no spider would survive in captivity at all as to get them into the cage, one must handle them, they would simply not understand have no way to adapt, and die. and this is not the case, limited adaptation must at least be recognized.

 

[flamesbane]

going on that theriom no spider would survive in captivity at all as to get them into the cage, one must handle them, they would simply not understand have no way to adapt, and die. and this is not the case, limited adaptation must at least be recognized.

Because if it doesn't kill them it's okay, right? Why do you think that so much effort is put into creating a good environment for the tarantula to live in? Just because a period of high stress doesn't kill them once doesn't mean you can extrapolate and say that many periods of high stress won't.

Are you suggesting that since a tarantula is handled to get it to you that it adapted to being handled?

Tarantulas are an ambush predator, they want to establish a territory and basically sit still in it. To suggest that removing them from that territory and putting them in another environment is in any way beneficial to them is ignorant.

Is handling going to kill a tarantula? Most think not.

Is handling good for your tarantula? Not in any tangible way.

Where is the benefit in handling? Why do you want to invite danger to your tarantula's life when you have no clue what the possible negative effects may be, especially in the long term? When it has been said on both sides of this argument that "no studies have been done" why would you want to chance damage to a tarantula for your own selfish (and childish) pleasure?

If you are going to handle, then handle. However don't presume to know that it doesn't harm your tarantula. There is no explainable reason to to handle a tarantulas regardless of whether or not a tarantula can over time adapt to being handled.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Because if it doesn't kill them it's okay, right? Why do you think that so much effort is put into creating a good environment for the tarantula to live in? Just because a period of high stress doesn't kill them once doesn't mean you can extrapolate and say that many periods of high stress won't.

Tarantulas are an ambush predator, they want to establish a territory and basically sit still in it. To suggest that removing them from that territory and putting them in another environment is in any way beneficial to them is ignorant.

Is handling going to kill a tarantula? Most think not.

Is handling good for your tarantula? Not in any tangible way.

Where is the benefit in handling? Why do you want to invite danger to your tarantula's life when you have no clue what the possible negative effects may be, especially in the long term? When it has been said on both sides of this argument that "no studies have been done" why would you want to chance damage to a tarantula for your own selfish (and childish) pleasure?

If you are going to handle, then handle. However don't presume to know that it doesn't harm your tarantula.

please do not paraphrase one of my posts without the context of the rest, if you go over them you will find I said just about that, the spider adapts, I did not vouche to or against handling simply gave my experiance; The entire topic of 'why' one should handle a tarantula is unrelated to my discussion and contributation to this thread, as with most of the origional posts.

The origional concept was HEY I handled my spider and NOTHING happend. what happend with yours did THIS happen

not *should* we handle
but what occurs when we do.

So again, I ask you go over my other various posts in this thread, in one of which you will see me enlightening another keeper to possibilities of harm to the spiders during handling.

Arguing over symantics is inane.
Arguing over a portion of the offered idealism is just silly.

Now regarding extroplation.

If I can successfuly keep lets say, 20 spiders from slinghood to adulthood with no ill effect, equal size growth rate apatite and offspring yielded as say the others that I do not hold, I think I can within good reason presume, that the handling will not overly harm my tarantula to worrysome levels. Thrive vs survive.

also this is mentioned in another one of my posts, without the actual foot work to do the experimentation upon HUNDREDS of tarantulas over the span of years, all of this is a debate of hypothsis as neither side has anything to offer beyond their own idealism.

Which by the way, even if you do not convay human feelings upon a tarantula but yet yield our ideas of what they should be, in a form you are still anthropormificating the spiders. Humanity is such a technicle thing.

 

[flamesbane]

please do not paraphrase one of my posts without the context of the rest, if you go over them you will find I said just about that, the spider adapts, I did not vouche to or against handling simply gave my experiance; The entire topic of 'why' one should handle a tarantula is unrelated to my discussion and contributation to this thread, as with most of the origional posts.

The origional concept was HEY I handled my spider and NOTHING happend. what happend with yours did THIS happen

not *should* we handle
but what occurs when we do.

So again, I ask you go over my other various posts in this thread, in one of which you will see me enlightening another keeper to possibilities of harm to the spiders during handling.

Arguing over symantics is inane.
Arguing over a portion of the offered idealism is just silly.

The entire post wasn't directed at you, but the thread in general.

Now regarding extroplation.

If I can successfuly keep lets say, 20 spiders from slinghood to adulthood with no ill effect, equal size growth rate apatite and offspring yielded as say the others that I do not hold, I think I can within good reason presume, that the handling will not overly harm my tarantula to worrysome levels. Thrive vs survive.

also this is mentioned in another one of my posts, without the actual foot work to do the experimentation upon HUNDREDS of tarantulas over the span of years, all of this is a debate of hypothsis as neither side has anything to offer beyond their own idealism.

Which by the way, even if you do not convay human feelings upon a tarantula but yet yield our ideas of what they should be, in a form you are still anthropormificating the spiders. Humanity is such a technicle thing.

The point is not "If I do it and it doesn't harm them it's okay". The point is why do it in the first place, expect for your own benefit. Again handling provides no benefit for the tarantula, and does create the opportunity to harm them (dropping them, ect) so why do it?

Added by Edit:

Saying "handling provides no benefit to the tarantula" is in no way anthropomorphizing them.

 

[Malhavoc's]

The point is not "If I do it and it doesn't harm them it's okay". The point is why do it in the first place, expect for your own benefit. Again handling provides no benefit for the tarantula, and does create the opportunity to harm them (dropping them, ect) so why do it?

I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.

That one is simple we do it to learn.

If we had no want to learn, and enjoy it (human emotions egad) we would not have the thrive to do a study to finaly shut this arguement up of the effects of handling on a tarantula, which I expect to be minimal, to determental. honestly, but without the want to find out, we never will.

At least, I can speak for myself, when it came to handling tarantulas; I did so to do behavioral studies, so I could easier work with them as a breeder/ and arachnocologist, I usualy have a handling phase with all new creatures I encounter so I can better judge them their movements and reactions for things like tank maitanance and the like.

generaly curiosity is the largest drive in people, IMO.

ninja editing: I could go into the entire debate of Perception reality and all of our known views as some form a type of placing anthropomorphizing; but it would never bring an end to this; and is picking at symantics.

((sorry I usualy post before my entire thought is out and then edit things on after re-reading it.))