I may have accidentally created hybrid hissers.

[jebbewocky]

I purchased a male and female pair at an LPS to breed them. They weren't even mating, so I bought more from a different lps (original was out)--now I've got a lot. All were sold simply as "Hissers," no binomial name given. I tossed these in with originals without thinking.

Personally, I'm perfectly happy with them, but being roached they breed. At this point, I'm not sure I should sell the young though. Some of the males are darker than others, but I know individual variation is pretty high with G.portentosa as well.

Plus, it seems to me that G.portentosa is the most commonly bred hisser, with others mostly being found by roach-specific dealers, so it is very likely they're all G.portentosa.

Thoughts?

 

[jebbewocky]

And please, let's not let this degenerate--I don't like hybrids in the hobby more than anyone else. This is just an oversight which *may* have resulted in hybrids--and I'm looking for advice.

 

[Bugs In Cyberspace]

You seem to have a conscience about the possible hybrids, so why not just spend a few bucks and start over with pure stock? Problem is, there's a very good chance all the "G. portentosa" in the hobby are hybridized.

 

[recluse]

Generally you are correct in your assumptions about G. portentosa. They do vary greatly and telling the difference can be very difficult to impossible unless you look at their genitalia. I am no expert and I am guilty of the same thing. I have had my G. portentosa colony since 2004. I guess about 5 years ago I purchased three larger than normal hissers that I were told were G. oblongonata from a local person who had ordered them online. There was one male and two females. At that time I was told that I should be able to tell the difference from the horns. I could not. I tossed them in with my other hissers. I think my current stock are hybrids now. Im not much help I guess. Good luck.

 

[jebbewocky]

I suppose I could cull or feed off the overpopulation?

 

[Ben Oliver]

sell some off for feeders and take that money and buy another colony.

 

[bugmankeith]

If they hybridized so what, it's not like your hissers were the last pure stock on earth. Mabye the store you got them from will buy some stock off you? Your mistake could equal $ in your pocket. I'm sure kids wanting them as pets could care less if there pure or mixed lineage.

 

[pouchedrat]

I have a hybrid hisser. He's larger than the two species that were used to create him. I purchased him as a hybrid from a roach breeder/dealer at a reptile show, or rather, my 5 year old son purchased him as a pet with his own money (he even carried him around in a little carrier and read him stories).

I went to look at his enclosure to find the two species that were hybridized together, as I HAD them written on the container, but it looks like my label wore off from misting with water.... sigh. one was the portentosa and the other was princessomething?

 

[Tenodera]

I have a hybrid hisser. He's larger than the two species that were used to create him. I purchased him as a hybrid from a roach breeder/dealer at a reptile show, or rather, my 5 year old son purchased him as a pet with his own money (he even carried him around in a little carrier and read him stories).

I went to look at his enclosure to find the two species that were hybridized together, as I HAD them written on the container, but it looks like my label wore off from misting with water.... sigh. one was the portentosa and the other was princessomething?

Princisia vanwierebecki (spelling?) is probably what you're thinking of. That name is mostly used in Europe and it seems very likely that it's the same as Gromphadorhina.

You're raising a good little kid!

To jebbewocky: I'd say you're fine as long as you use them as personal feeders or pets and tell anyone you give them to of the possible impurity.

 

[jebbewocky]

Yeah, I figured--plus, with all the rumors of impurity within captive portentosa--I'd rather not cull if most portentosa are hybrids anyway. Seems unnecessary.

 

[Elytra and Antenna]

Problem is, there's a very good chance all the "G. portentosa" in the hobby are hybridized.

Where would you come up with that idea? The "other species" have only been in the hobby a few years so at this point most portentosa are just that. Sadly, your assumption may be right in another five years.

 

[jebbewocky]

Really, beyond the fact that I bought from two different stores, purchased by common name, and some of the males were darker--I wouldn't be worried about it. Both were pet stores, and I doubt they would have any non-portentosa stock.

 

[ZephAmp]

Good to see someone being conscious about these things.

The truth is, not only, as Peter said, could all of the Gromphadorhina portentosa in the hobby actually be hybrids, but most if not all of the other "species" of hisser in the genera Gromphadorhina and Princisia are probably the same species, but different subspecies or races. In Dr. Louis Roth's book, Cockroaches: Ecology, Behavior, and Natural History, he discusses how the effects of aptery (winglessness) greatly affects various species of cockroach. It prevents the flow of genes between populations that exhibit the characteristic (since flying roaches generally possess males which can travel distances by flight to reach females) and thus creates distinct races or subpopulations that may be in very close proximity to one another but unable to exchange genes. In the case of the hissers, it is very possible that the original Gromphadorhina portentosa were collected by locals over a trip through the local scrub, meaning any number of distinct races could have been added to the grab bag that has become the common hisser stock.
Coincidentally, hisser taxonomy is based on pronotal structure (at least in Gromphadorhina and Princisia) which further clouds the issue. For example, I have black hissers from a source who started his colony of normal hissers from 3 individuals. He sent me several black subadults, and I have been culling the colony to choose only the blackest individuals. Strangely, the darkest male so far has a notch in his pronotum which is said to be a distinguishing characteristic of Princisia. This could mean several things; Perhaps our G. portentosa actually have some "Princisia" blood in them, or (what I believe to be more likely) the genes associated with the pronotal notch may also be associated with color. Normal Princisia vanwaerebeki individuals are very dark with borders of color on their abdomen; in the black G. portentosa this is also where any color "impurities" can be seen. So it really is a mess, but hopefully it will be settled one day soon. Unfortunately molecular techniques will probably not be helpful as they tend not to capture true relationships in species that diverged rapidly.

 

[jebbewocky]

Ah, so they might be sub-species hybrids or something. Or not even that. But, yeah, probably best not to distribute. No need to start over as I'm not particularly bothered.

Also, the horseshoe crab roaches I got from you back in may are doing well--I saw a female either laying ootheca, or popping them out to adjust internally.

 

[pavel]

my 5 year old son purchased him as a pet with his own money (he even carried him around in a little carrier and read him stories).

:laugh:THAT was funny! I can just picture it! I like your kid.:biggrin:

 

[Whitecrow]

Ya, Sounds like my kids when they were young!! Then everything gets passed on to dad!!! The horseshoe are truely awesome as are all the roaches from Kyle!!!