I knew it, invasive walkingsticks being sold

bugmankeith

Arachnoking
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A reptile expo here had people selling Indian and Devil horn (?) walkingsticks. I asked them "are these native", they were like "no, we only sell non native". By the way, everyone spoke bad english, so I bet thats how they got them, out of country.
And you have to have a permit to sell here, guess nobody cared about the species being sold?

There were hundreds of them, some guy bought 25 at once, what is he making a walkingstick arc? That's crazy!

I didnt get any, I was only looking for natives, and of course none. :( Then they had mantids and millipedes too.
 

ZephAmp

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Imagine this: Those guys will sell thousands of non-native phasmids to unknowing people wanting to keep them as pets, or maybe, even more confused people, wanting to release them in their gardens (they look like mantids right so the two must do the same job!). They probably get rid of extra eggs by throwing them in the trash. They'll do this for years and never get busted.

Now, cue one curious hobbyist who wants to keep the same species, do everything right, willing to keep the species in a secure environment, dispose of extra eggs via appropriate protocol (burning, etc): They send one e-mail to USDA/APHIS asking about permits, and the next thing you know, their house is being raided.

Certainly a messed up situation if you ask me...
 

bugmankeith

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True. The good news is, they cannot survive here even if they escaped, way too cold, but still, unfair to the responsible people.
 

tom

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phasmids being sold

I am aware of a fellow at the Reptile Expo in Westchester County New York selling only Phasmids but in fact without permits to the general public for several years now.He seems unaware of certain genera being illegal without USDA permits.No official reinforces the rules, and yet I saw loxosceles reclusa and Latrodectus bishopi for sale as well.
No scorpions are allowed yet centipedes are sold without problems!even though some animal dealers here are primarily interested in making a fast buck, some actually care about the animals they sell and do not sell to minors.
just had to comment. Cheers, Tom
 

bugmankeith

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I am aware of a fellow at the Reptile Expo in Westchester County New York selling only Phasmids but in fact without permits to the general public for several years now.He seems unaware of certain genera being illegal without USDA permits.No official reinforces the rules, and yet I saw loxosceles reclusa and Latrodectus bishopi for sale as well.
No scorpions are allowed yet centipedes are sold without problems!even though some animal dealers here are primarily interested in making a fast buck, some actually care about the animals they sell and do not sell to minors.
just had to comment. Cheers, Tom
This was the Long Island Reptile Expo, so might be him, but kids were able to buy them.
 

tom

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fellow id

he wears glasses and has salt and pepper hair, but usually works alone.
i have his email address and name at home. cheers, tom
 

What

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By the way, everyone spoke bad english, so I bet thats how they got them, out of country.
And you have to have a permit to sell here, guess nobody cared about the species being sold?
They probably have had them for years, I have been hearing about this particular individual from ppl on here since I first started pontificating about the actual USDA/Aphis stances on things(like all those assassins everyone has, yeah, the USDA says you need permits...) however long ago that was.

This really isnt a surprise to anyone, bugmankeith, except you I guess... All the fun species of beetles are in the USA if you know where to look, as are the walking sticks. The chances of getting caught having things transported through the mail and then the penalties attached to that are more than enough for me to keep well enough away from them, but they are out there, have been out there, and probably always will be. So lets keep that in mind and not talk about them on AB, ok? If you are so inclined you can call your local USDA office and report this guy, I dont really think its a bad idea given how well known he is and how reckless he seems to be, but its your business.

Something worth keeping in mind though, is that at the Los Angeles NHM's BugFair a year or so ago(or whenever I went last) there were 4 or 5 species of sticks and beetles being sold right under the USDA's nose, literally... I watched someone walk by their booth with both beetles and sticks in plastic containers and the guys standing around didnt even notice. :wall: I dont want to see an AB member have their life made various levels of uncomfortable because of a simple post about an illegal bug on a forum.
 

Galapoheros

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Hello What, I was kind of getting the same vib with this thread. I wasn't sure what to think about it, it was giving me a small neg feeling, as though TSA agents had walked into my house and were eye-balling my stuff, ....something like that lol.
 

Moltar

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What a tough conundrum. If somebody turns people like this in, the hobby gets a black eye for selling invasives and legislation is now that much closer. If not, we are stuck with the knowledge of potentially dangerous invasives being distributed, probably into the wild and another black eye for the hobby down the road when the feds catch up. It's a lose-lose.
 

bugmankeith

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I dont see how this is negative to any of you unless you advertise your keeping illegal species, I dont want you to lose your bugs so mums the word, just dont say anything then.

I wanted to mention that even with all these laws people still dont listen and obviously instead of watching the forums here the USDA needs to go to the source (the illegal sellers) and not people here unknowingly buying illegal species. For gods sake teens can buy them online as long as they know how to use a credit card, but they would not know the laws, it's up to the seller to follow the rules.

How many threads about walkingsticks on here are always being "watched" anyway, I hope the USDA sees this they are not doing their job that good I guess.

When I said someone is selling them (not anyone here even) you guys freak out! I'm not going to assume, but saying this makes your nervous doesnt look good.... and I bet this same guy is well known, sure his stock is healthy, but not smart of him to sell those species, he had plenty of legal mantids to sell that were gorgeous, expand that hobby. I even told him to sell some roaches for feeders he would make more $.

anyway, you can get anything in NY these days it seems, like the tiger found in I think in Brooklyn in an apartment, you just never know here!
 

Bugs In Cyberspace

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The species that are being discussed here have been in the hobby for decades, while most participants on this topic act like this is some terrible act against humanity. Yes, C. morosus established itself, probably on a patch of (truly) invasive non-native Himalayan blackberry in California. It's an oft-quoted example of "why" all stick-insects are illegal in the US. John Smith (fictitious name) has probably sold them TO the USDA in years past. They appreciate our paranoia, but the truth is they are more (legitimately) worried about unknown threats of new species of phasmids being imported than ones that have been here for decades with little cause for concern. The USDA is concerned with species being imported (yes, I said that twice). When you consider how many have been here for how long and in combination with how many ignorant people have released them when their cultures became too large, it is plain that they are not a threat (even if they are regulated species with the USDA). Officials will sometimes walk past a table at such a show and make a big deal of it and sometimes not. Think "speeding ticket". Rub an officer's nose in it and you will motivate them to do their job.

Some of the perspectives shared in this thread with regards to other insect groups are sourced in misinformation as well. We can work together in this hobby and with our government to protect what we have in this country, while being reasonable about what shades of law are enforced. Just because it is illegal to spit on the sidewalk in some US cities, doesn't mean I want my tax dollars going towards its enforcement or to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have the law rewritten.

"What", this has been your most reasonable post on this topic ever. Thank you!

My favorite line in this thread was Tom's "...but usually works alone". Don't be fooled, Tom, evil always has a sidekick (sometimes it's a very attractive and equally evil female) and often a vast network of underlings! The thread title, of course, we great too..."I knew it!"
 
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What

Arachnoprince
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The species that are being discussed here have been in the hobby for decades, while most participants on this topic act like this is some terrible act against humanity. Yes, C. morosus established itself, probably on a patch of (truly) invasive non-native Himalayan blackberry in California.
And the population I mentioned in Newport beach...and the populations in San Diego county...
They appreciate our paranoia, but the truth is they are more (legitimately) worried about unknown threats of new species of phasmids being imported than ones that have been here for decades with little cause for concern. The USDA is concerned with species being imported (yes, I said that twice).
This point is very very true, though... There is quite a fuss in Southern California right now about these beetles.

Im not sure if you are saying my stance in the past on this has been unreasonable with your post...but if you are that is something I have to disagree with... I have more than enough personal and 2nd hand experience with the methods of the US government to feel the way I do on this and other issues.

I do agree that the current laws are completely ineffective and pointless, though... and they are in need of a complete rewriting, but the bug hobby is too small a population for them to even consider us in their regulations. Putting forth a working permitting system for these things would be something that would benefit both hobbyists and universities/research institutions alike. All of the places I have corresponded with that have USDA inspected facilities feel it is far overkill for the things they are dealing with.
 
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