Hybrids = bad. Why?

[OphidianDelight]

It seems to me that posting this to harp on her for selling the hybrid only ended up helping her to find a buyer for said hybrid even faster.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

Hybrids are going to pop up no matter how many posts you make saying that hybrids are bad blah, blah, blah. Just take a look at the snake hobby. Hybrids are everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the T hobby starts to look like that after a couple decades.

Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close.

@MrDusty, if these 14-15 year olds don't know simple pattern recognition, what makes you think they are gonna know the difference between a mature male and any other T? They will just be breeding two females or immature males with females. Since they know nothing about them.

Also, I don't think you can breed E. campestratus to A. seemanni.

 

[MD92]

Hybrids are going to pop up no matter how many posts you make saying that hybrids are bad blah, blah, blah. Just take a look at the snake hobby. Hybrids are everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the T hobby starts to look like that after a couple decades.

I'm not trying to take sides here but I wanted to point out that a tarantula hybrid is a little bit of a stretch to compare with a snake hybrid. I'm not an expert on snakes but for the sake of arguing lets say they have ten babies on average, usually it's easy to tell the difference between a normal and a hybrid and they are definitely not getting given out as freebies. A T is going to have upwards of hundreds of babies, many of whom could be sold or given as a freebie and the second someone becomes too lazy to remember both parents or too ignorant to care and that T gets it's hybrid genes into the bloodlines, all it does is muck up everything else. In addition, when T's are hybridized they are done so intentionally. Sure, you may have an occasional screw up but in 99.999% of cases both parents' species are known and they are hunkered down together for the goal of producing. It would be a rather large surprise to me if all T's in the hobby became uniform in a couple decades solely because what many keepers are trying to do is keep the purity of our CB's alive. Rant over. Again, not trying to take sides nor do I want this to be perceived as an attack, I just wanted to get an opinion out there. Fun fact, I'm actually very interested in the hybridization of species and their "hybrid vigor" in an evolutionary sense, but tarantulas are a complete exception to that rule.

 

[MichiruKaminari]

Wait, so let me get this straight... You made a thread just to bash on someone down on their luck just to make a point that really didn't need made?

How can you be so sure that one little sling being sold to someone who isn't going to breed it is going to muddle up your hobby?

You do realize that hybrids of any animal species occur naturally in nature whether you like it or not, right? There's a chance that some of the wild caught specimens that helped start up this hobby were in fact hybrids. For all you know, one of your spiders might be the great great grandchild of a hybrid.

Oh, and thanks for pimping out Kori's listings

 

[MrDusty]

Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close.

@MrDusty, if these 14-15 year olds don't know simple pattern recognition, what makes you think they are gonna know the difference between a mature male and any other T? They will just be breeding two females or immature males with females. Since they know nothing about them.

Also, I don't think you can breed E. campestratus to A. seemanni.

Well...perhaps "simple" wasn't the best term considering they're very subtle notes with the example I gave...and I don't have a lot of faith in beginners knowing male from female (I had a friend on another forum actually put two female rosies in a tank on accident, they'll remain anonymous in this discussion). However, I can hope that people do a bit more homework and act responsibly when breeding...because how do you know you can't breed E camp and A seemanni if you didn't try? Scientifically when done in a situation with CONTROLS, this kind of research can be rather enlightening.

I'm seeing people mention hybrids eventually coming about...and they may very well do so. I'm just personally hoping that it is a few decades down the road once science puts enough overhead into the taxonomy to give us a better look at the situation.

And Chris, in terms of accidental hybrids this is something we can't avoid right now unfortunately...but I do like the idea of at the very least avoiding everybody throwing a monkeywrench into the kiddypool.

Right now I'd be willing to bet you could stump most tarantula "experts" with a hybrid for a good while...if enough propagate we might as well never even try to figure out what is what and thus all the scientific research done so far becomes moot.

 

[AmbushArachnids]

My 2 cents.

Id like to point out i was sent 3 B. albovagans from sharpfang as freebies. He told me they were pure B. albopilosum. This goes to show you what kind of people are in the hobby. Simply careless. I asked him specifically if they were and he said no. I highly doubt he bred pure albopilosum. Selling a hybrid on the free market possibly puts it in someones hands that doesnt care about what happens to the hobby. Not flaming, just saying. Mislabeled or not there are alot of idiots in the T hobby.

Alot of people can argue someone can breed hybrids themself so it doesnt matter. But once these hybrids are tollerated on the market is when people start spreading them around more.

Its also easier to obtain one hybrid rather than breed several hundered you dont want to kill or cant get rid of. People that want things to be natural and not man made dont want to kill them for some reason. Understandable... Well everything dies one day.

P.S. I froze my hybrid gifts and fed them to other slings. I simply dont want any man made tarantulas or the possibility of contributing to the abomination of nature by man. The reptile hobby is a perfect example of what the T hobby could become.

 

[Earthworm Soul]

See below, minus the comments directed at EwS.

I can't very well point out a hybrid being sold if it's not listed as a hybrid, can I? Explain to me how intentionally selling a hybrid is something you can compare to definition and organization of genera (that's the plural for 'genus', by the way) and accidental production of hybrids in the hobby (I'm sure you have sources lined up to link here that confirm your claim, right?)

Let's not get in to what you lack, hmm?

Support for my claim? Do you honestly think that every person that has bred A. hentzi, or T. blondi, or nearly any Avic has never produced a hybrid by mistake?

If you want to discuss the ethics of breeding hybrids, that's fine, but you're belittling and attempting to chastise someone for selling an animal that is clearly labeled as a hybrid. A simple PM could have been sufficient to try to voice your view to her, but instead you decided to try to call her out. You're behaving like a snotty child over a subject that in all likelihood won't adversely affect the hobby or the species as a whole. Get over yourself.

It's arrogant and acerbic people like you that cause more harm to this hobby than a sac or two of hybrids. You want to protect this hobby? Try to educate people without coming across as a bratty child. No one listens to people who can't communicate their ideas like an adult.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.

By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.


Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.

 

[Earthworm Soul]

I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.

By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.


Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.

So, the correct course of action to prevent the proliferation of hybrids (whether intentional or not) is to attempt to rally a lynch mob around someone trying to sell a single animal that they didn't even produce?

 

[JamieC]

I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.

By highlighting that advertisement he is giving the proof that every naysayer of potential irresponsible hybrid keeping chooses to ignore: Intentional hybrids are being bred and passed around indiscriminately. This is now occurring for this specific instance with third hand owners. Unintentional hybrids are not the issue here, but selling one whether it is stated that they are or are not a hybrid (when they know it is a hybrid) is. Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.


Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.

I agree. Absolutely spot on! :clap:

 

[NikiP]

I agree with what xhexdx said, but definitely not in the way he said it

I think things would have been a lot different had he, like, asked Kori to send it to him for the price of shipping. Then he could have destroyed it & his rant may have been taken differently.

If my memory is right, the person who posted a P. cambridgei x P. irminia female sometime back wasn't tarred & feathered on the board.

However, I also agree with the posters that believe there may be more hybrids in the hobby then we care to recognize. Definitely with the Avicularia, possibly with Aphonopelma, & more recently i'd read in several places about the possibly of B. baumgarteni being a natural hybrid.

 

[CFleming]

Comparing snakes to Ts? You're not even close.

In this disucssion, that is not the case. I have been involved in this argument for years on reptile forums. Both sides make the same arguments there that everyone is making here. If the world was a perfect place, then the hybrid issues would not exists. The problem with hybrids is that eventually the only stock that is available is what is in the country already. There are too many people out there just trying to make a quick buck and will sell them without informing the buyer that it is a hybrid. Even if the producer of the hybrids informs that they are hybrids, it is irresponsible to sell them because you can not guarantee what the next buyer will do with the hybrid. The gene pool becomes muddy. Look at carpet pythons. There are only a handful of people in the country that can honestly say they have pure coastal carpets, jungle carpets, etc. It really is a big problem. People breed the crosses, cant sell for the insane prices they feel they are worth, then end up selling them off cheap wihtout even informing the buyer that these are jungle x coastal crosses not jungle carpets. That is part of the reason I got out of carpet pythons. It became a pain in the butt to get new snakes because of the lineage information I required from the sellers. I passed up so many beautiful snakes because the lineage only went back one or two generations. I do not want to see something of this nature happen to the T world.

Side note: The only time hybrids are even remotley acceptable is if they occur naturally in the wild. But the offspring should only be made available to educational facilities or close personal friends where you know they will be kept in a responsible manner.

 

[CAK]

I agree with what xhexdx said, but definitely not in the way he said it

I think things would have been a lot different had he, like, asked Kori to send it to him for the price of shipping. Then he could have destroyed it & his rant may have been taken differently.

If my memory is right, the person who posted a P. cambridgei x P. irminia female sometime back wasn't tarred & feathered on the board.

However, I also agree with the posters that believe there may be more hybrids in the hobby then we care to recognize. Definitely with the Avicularia, possibly with Aphonopelma, & more recently i'd read in several places about the possibly of B. baumgarteni being a natural hybrid.

I have a cambrisdgei x irminia girl that is huge and gorgeous! I might just have to post a big fat ad for sale!

 

[gromgrom]

I agree with xhexdx here. Yes he lacks tact and rubs oh so many people the wrong way, but he tends to be the much needed thorn that many of us would be if we so chose. Somehow the majority of us translate our real life social skills and preconceived notions of politeness and tact onto our interaction online. Though this creates a welcoming environment, it leads to needles coddling and diplomatic grey areas that allow for people to justify selfish behavior. He is simply stating what many of us can't due to our delusional sense of internet relations. No one wants their wee little internet feelings hurt.

Any time a hybrid is intentionally passed around it provides profit to the supplier, enforces the legitimacy of a potentially negative act by adding a monetary value to the hybrid, and showcases the extreme irresponsibility of the previous owner. It should not be supported, period.

Try breeding and selling a hybrid in the dart frog community. They will hunt you down with no mercy.

+1 !!!!

Id like to point out i was sent 3 B. albovagans from sharpfang as freebies. He told me they were pure B. albopilosum. This goes to show you what kind of people are in the hobby. Simply careless. I asked him specifically if they were and he said no. I highly doubt he bred pure albopilosum. Selling a hybrid on the free market possibly puts it in someones hands that doesnt care about what happens to the hobby. Not flaming, just saying. Mislabeled or not there are alot of idiots in the T hobby.

Alot of people can argue someone can breed hybrids themself so it doesnt matter. But once these hybrids are tollerated on the market is when people start spreading them around more.

Its also easier to obtain one hybrid rather than breed several hundered you dont want to kill or cant get rid of. People that want things to be natural and not man made dont want to kill them for some reason. Understandable... Well everything dies one day.

P.S. I froze my hybrid gifts and fed them to other slings. I simply dont want any man made tarantulas or the possibility of contributing to the abomination of nature by man. The reptile hobby is a perfect example of what the T hobby could become.

and this. I think these new kids getting rubbed the wrong way by xhedx need to see this. And understand.

And I hate to stick up for xhedx AGAIN, but I agree with him here, if that P. imirnia I had was a hybrid, i'd keep it and never let anything touch it till it died. But I took it to a big name vendor who told me it was in fact a pure imirnia and took it off my hands.

The OP gets some credibility as listing it as a pureblood. but no, this hobby can do without these hybrids switching hands.

 

[Bumblingbear]

I know it probably shouldn't, but it never ceases to amaze me that there is so much drama on these boards.

Folks - we keep spiders as pets.

Why so serious?

 

[pwilson5]

OMG!! a hybrid thread?? no way! ive never seen one of these before!!!

 

[madamoisele]

I'm sorry you're offended that I attacked your friend

Somehow, I doubt this.

 

[Kirk]

As a systematist, I find these sorts of threads both amusing and useless.

 

[baboonfan]

Look at some of his other posts. You'll see a trend there.

I am against cross breeding but his posts are very keyboard commando. I am blown away that such people can exist while there are two wars going on, I did my part and cant respect them.

I would avoid any breeder wanting to crossbreed like AIDS for the simple reason that nature gave us what is. Respect for nature is paramount.

 

[Tym Hollerup]

Oh yes, I'm sure that hybrids are never produced by accident in this hobby. After all, all the genuses are so clearly defined and organized. Give me a break. The thing that sucks is that I actually agree with him in theory that hybrids should be avoided, but to single a person out for selling a sling that's clearly labeled a hybrid is just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass.

xhexdx might know something about inverts, but he lacks any tact or etiquette.

Very well said. But after all xhexdx is Mr. Know it all half the time. He could never be in the wrong. LOL. I'm assuming he has now abandoned this thread hopefully realizing that he was being completely out of line! He had ZERO business doing this to Kori! She clearly listed it as a Crossbreed! She has every right to sell the T to whoever she likes! She can also carefully choose to sell if the buyer is questionable. For example: If a new buyer with little experience wants it, she doesn't have to sell it. If another known breeder wants to buy it, she doesn't have to sell it. The problem with people like xhexdx is they are stuck in their ways, and unable to realize that people can make their own decisions! He's like an overgrown middle schooler spreading rumors for sheer stupidity! He may have had an argument had Kori failed to mention it was a Crossbreed. But she didn't. So all in all, he just looks like a fool. In my opinion anyway.