Hybrid?

[_bob_]

I just wanted to see what everyone thought of this T I have. I bought her a while back as a P. cambridgei... I thought when she was younger that her striping would dissipate when she grew larger. She has been the same coloration since she was about 2.5 inches or so. Anyways now that she is larger I am starting to believe that she is really P. cambridgei x P. irminia.

Bob

 

[Kimo]

She is definatelly looking as a hybrid of those mentioned. If she is bigger then 3.5 inches and still those colors, I am sure she isn't pure P.cambridgei...and stripes on legs are also more orange and intense as I can see in picture...and the abdomen is something between those two species.

 

[WARPIG]

Looks like a light colored irminia, but you can't rule out he H word!!!

PIG-

 

[_bob_]

Well the thing is that she has a lot of grey. Here is a picture from a few molts ago

 

[Yung Cae$ar]

That's a very pretty T, and could defineately be a hybrid of the two previously mentioned Ts. Thats a nice find if it is a hybrid

 

[Veneficus]

Well the thing is that she has a lot of grey. Here is a picture from a few molts ago

It looks like a male P. irminia, since they have a lot of gray, except the abdomen has more color & stripes on it; although, if it is a male, it might lose that with the ultimate molt.

 

[_bob_]

Its not a male. It's a female. I bred her around December and she laid an infertile egg sac.

Bob

 

[hamfoto]

Hmmmm...that's very interesting that she laid an infertile eggsac. I would continue to try and mate her in the future and see what happens. There are people that know Psalmopoeus that believe cambridgei is just a color variant of irminia.

Chris

 

[_bob_]

Hmmm... well i have a MM P. cambridgei right now. Do you think I should use a P. cambridgei or a P. irminia MM? Last time it was infertile I used a P. irminia MM.

We have spoken about this before.... You were saying that you didn't think they were the same species... Since they are from two completely different parts of the world.

I have been very interested in this particular spider to see if I can even get a viable egg sac out of her. I have thought for a while that she might be a cross but I will give it another try. She just molted recently too.

Something that I will also consider is that the male was infertile. I do not remember the age of him but I believe he might have been pretty fresh.

 

[_bob_]

Just to add some more photos for the curious people out there...

This is right before the mating actual took place.

This about a week or so before she laid her egg sack.

Laying her egg sack before I left for work

With the sac

Here are her eggs.

 

[Noexcuse4you]

I would advise you not try to mate her. There's no need to have hybrids in the hobby and it would only mess things up. In my opinion, cambridgei and irminia are better looking by themselves than a hybrid. What would you sell the slings as? What if those slings were mated with a irminia or a cambridgei? It would only cause problems. Just look at what happened to the Avicularia genus when people misidentified them.

 

[DrAce]

Breeding isn't a viable way to test if she is a hybrid. I think these discussions should be had with those who sold you the tarantula, though.

If she cannot produce a viable sac from any matings, then it's possible she was a hybrid. Then again, if she can produce a viable sac, then that also doesn't mean she wasn't a hybrid. You could be hybridising her with that mating.

 

[_bob_]

One thing to keep in mind is that when I first tried to breed her I didn't even consider that she might be a hybrid. Also if I did decide to breed her again. I would not give anyone the slings or even sell them. I really don't want this to turn in to a debate about hybrids.

Bob

 

[hamfoto]

Bob - yeah, I personally wouldn't call them the same species b/c I am a "splitter" and Trinidad is now separate from Venezuela and there are unique species that are endemic to Trinidad...so, I would still consider them different species. But I do believe that cambridgei came from the irminia lineage or that they both came from a common ancestor.
I would try to mate her with the opposite of the one you mated with her in the past.

Everyone else - this is an experiment...we don't need your thought on whether you think hybrids should be created and sold and put into the hobby. Bob is trustworthy and he knows what he's doing. And DrAce's comments are correct.

DrAce - I agree that breeding isn't "the" way that you can test as to whether she is a hybrid...but it is a way to get some interesting info to expand upon. If in fact she is a hybrid and cannot reproduce that gives us some very interesting information on two closely related spiders.

Chris

 

[DrAce]

...
DrAce - I agree that breeding isn't "the" way that you can test as to whether she is a hybrid...but it is a way to get some interesting info to expand upon. If in fact she is a hybrid and cannot reproduce that gives us some very interesting information on two closely related spiders.
...

I agree that it would be interesting... but it would be meaningless and is a very bad experiment.

An infertile sac wouldn't tell you if the mating was bad, she's infertile, the male's infertile or if she just had a bad sac.
A fertile sac wouldn't tell you anything more. She's either back-crossing into her original species or forming a new hybrid (either way).

So, while I agree, it MIGHT tell you something, it's a bad experiment... that's all I'm saying.

 

[GoTerps]

I think these 2 species have been crossed in the hobby for years now.

Years back, hybrids of the 2 (which are less attractive then either true species IMO) were even sold online to the public by 1 dealer who is no longer around. I've raised crosses of these 2 species myself, though I don't have any living material today.

The offspring have been shown to be fertile as well.

I'm NOT saying what Bob has is a hybrid though... really don't know. I've seen a good bit of natural intraspecific variation with regards to coloration in groups of pure P. cambridgei.

Eric

 

[syndicate]

with no WC imports of these species anymore how does one even know if there irminia or cambridgei is from a pure line?

 

[pato_chacoana]

fertile hybrids offsprings? ohh...that's bad, very bad...

 

[DrAce]

with no WC imports of these species anymore how does one even know if there irminia or cambridgei is from a pure line?

No. Do you know there are any purely bred ones in the wild either?

fertile hybrids offsprings? ohh...that's bad, very bad...

Yup. So's global warming.

And Rob Schinder.

Hybrids can tell us important information. While I partially agree with the logic of keeping them under wraps, I have to also conclude that many of the arguments against them are made by people who are poorly informed.

Also, you've missed the two calls above to NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A DEBATE ABOUT HYBRIDS!

 

[GoTerps]

with no WC imports of these species anymore how does one even know if there irminia or cambridgei is from a pure line?

Just wanted to add some info to your question, without really answering it

The P. cambridgei I have sold, and am still selling are pure. The mother/father of the parents came direct from Trinidad along with the T. plumipes I have from there.

There were WC P. irminia that came in sometime in 2006. I think adults were sold as "CB" along with some adult C. cyaneopubescens, but that was a lie (they went to Europe first then shipped to the U.S. as "CB").

Eric