Hybrid Tarantulas

[Mojo Jojo]

EDIT: Of course this does raise a whole other issue I have with arachnid taxonomy - it steadfastly refuses to recognise subspecies preferring to grant species status regardless of what evidence there is to the contrary. Regardless, it's pretty obvious that tigerrumps and greenbottles are different species.

Oops! My bad. I was mixing up genus with species. From what I understand, there is talk of changing the genus of Chromatapelma to that of Cyclosternum.

But I have seen some pictures of tarantulas within the same genus that have been crossed:

http://birdspiders.com/archive/1/0134.htm

I believe that I have also seen a hybrid between B. vagans and B. albopilosum.

So would these be sterile?

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Big Dragonfly
But I have seen some pictures of tarantulas within the same genus that have been crossed:

http://birdspiders.com/archive/1/0134.htm

I believe that I have also seen a hybrid between B. vagans and B. albopilosum.

So would these be sterile?

Yep, if you cross a curly and redrump you get a curiosity piece and nothing more, which is about the only saving grace for most hybrids. Unfortunately, they can still cause a ton of confusion if it is later presented to a taxonomist as an unknown species.

 

[VI6SIX]

Re: all I have to say is this...

Originally posted by Phillip
When Rick West puts a species on his site unless it states that it is a hybrid then it is not. He is far more of an ID expert than myself and he has recognized the cobalt redrump as being the real deal. That is good enough for me. And no they look nothing like a greenbottle nor do they behave like one. They are also a good bit smaller when grown.

And yes it is one of my faves..... cryin shame that it didn't have a large enough following to actually get it bred and keep it in the hobby. I have tried but as of yet mine has yet to make a sack. She has been bred but still nothing to get pumped up about. On the bright side she hasn't molted either so she still could.

Phil

I've actualy attempted to breed this sp. several times but as of yet have had no luck

 

[VI6SIX]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
Yep, if you cross a curly and redrump you get a curiosity piece and nothing more, which is about the only saving grace for most hybrids. Unfortunately, they can still cause a ton of confusion if it is later presented to a taxonomist as an unknown species.

well I know I'll take a BUNCH of crap for this but I have a mature male albogans (vagans albopillosum hybrid) and I think he's gonna see a couple of ladies namely a female vagans and a female curly ......... but on the extreme outside chaqnce I get a fertile sac out of the deal I plan on feeding the off spring to other larger spiders I just have to know for myself

 

[conipto]

Re: all I have to say is this...

First off...


QUOTE]Originally posted by Phillip

And yes it is one of my faves..... cryin shame that it didn't have a large enough following to actually get it bred and keep it in the hobby. I have tried but as of yet mine has yet to make a sack. She has been bred but still nothing to get pumped up about. On the bright side she hasn't molted either so she still could.

Phil [/QUOTE]

Phil, you're right, that is an amazing looking species. If ever you manage to breed one, let me know, and I'll be happy to get a few off of you. In fact I may start searching for slings from any source pretty soon.

Second off..

While I might get a bit of a rouse from this, I personally do not see a problem with hybridizing IF you seriously plan to keep every last offspring for yourself. I think it's something that should be left for people with the capability (and desire) to raise 2-8 hundred of the same species of T, should they succeed. However, I think it's something that should be done for more scientific reasons (such as the aforementioned taxonomical use), rather than trying to create the 'ultimate pet T' that is quite obviously portrayed in 'The Tarantula Keepers Guide' by the schultzes. I think human tendency to study, manipulate, and generally F up every other species on the planet will probably eventually lead into the T hobby, though. Unfortunate as that is. The biggest limiting factor I see is that to be truly successful, it would take several lifetimes worth of raising and breeding T's, and there are enough wonderful species out there to really not even bother.

Bill

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by VI6SIX
well I know I'll take a BUNCH of crap for this but I have a mature male albogans (vagans albopillosum hybrid) and I think he's gonna see a couple of ladies namely a female vagans and a female curly ......... but on the extreme outside chaqnce I get a fertile sac out of the deal I plan on feeding the off spring to other larger spiders I just have to know for myself

I don't see where you'll take crap. In this case, you're verifying a hypothesis and plan to handle the results of the null-hypothesis responsibly. It should not be possible to cross an albogans with anything, but if you can, feed them spiderlings to others and let us know.

That's a whole different scenario than saying you want to make some hybrids and give them away.

 

[Gillian]

CM,
Thank you for putting into words what I myself could not do, after a long day at work.

About breeding for yourself...you would have several hundred or more babies to contend with

Peace,
Gillian

 

[AlbinoDragon829]

Strong words, CM

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by AlbinoDragon829
Strong words, CM

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I've been taking quite a bit of flack in the watering hole for strong words lately

@Conipto - Re responsible experimentation: same idea as what I said VI6SIX. If a hobbyist really wants to responsibly cross two tarantulas I think it's a waste of time and effort, but I'm not going to say NEVER do that as the Ts are theirs to do with what they want. *You* know it's a hybrid and you know exactly what went into it, so long as they start and stop with you, no harm, no foul. It's that whole, "I could sell them" or "Wouldn't it be cool, I'll just give them away" that is the issue - at that point it ceases to be a personal matter.

Just stick to your guns about keeping the hybrids contained. I don't think too many people necessarily grasp just how long these things live except as a number. How many people on this board have had female tarantulas that have died of old age for them? I've done it, and I saw how my life changed, how my total interest in the Ts waxed and waned over these periods, etc. Now that I'm older, I can say with some confidence that I'm in it for the long haul so I'm more comfortable getting 30+ Ts. But when Bob the enthusiastic newbie actually succeeds in breeding super-T X and gives them out to some of his friends, I'd say it's a sure bet that if they don't kill them, at least 75% of them will wind up given away/sold at some point. And if a T passes through enough people, who knows what its ID'd as, and all it takes is a few to wind up in "improbable" situations to cause a lot of damage to the hobby or at least waste the efforts of people trying to breed for good, sound reasons.

 

[Vys]

Originally posted by Code Monkey

Re responsible experimentation: same idea as what I said VI6SIX. If a hobbyist really wants to responsibly cross two tarantulas I think it's a waste of time and effort, but I'm not going to say NEVER do that as the Ts are theirs to do with what they want. *You* know it's a hybrid and you know exactly what went into it, so long as they start and stop with you, no harm, no foul.

I still think they're worth some measure of respect eventhough they can't solve a Rubic's Cube.
Besides, trying to mate a hybrid of species A and B with species A and B just to see if you can get a fertile eggsac sounds quite uninteresting to me(although this is just a subjective view), and who knows what the next step will be? I'm not accusing you as a person Vis6x, I'm just saying the lust for experimenting prolly resides more or less in every individual, and it constantly battles with ethics and compassion.

That rest yadda yadda though Code, I agree with.

 

[Weapon-X]

re

yeah i guess your right there monkey, and you to phil, if i do ever do something like that(but i doubt i would be able to), i'll just keep a few of the females for conversation pets and use the rest for fodder or something---Jeff

 

[arachnopunks]

Re: all I have to say is this...

I know. Ours was a mature male and we sent it off to breed to someone who had 2 females. Sandly, the person we sent it to felt that our spider looked "a little curled up" and felt it fit to poison it. We were beyond mad. I have some photos of him but I do not have a scanner or I would post him. IMO they are one of the best balances between color and temperment in a tarantula.

BTW....of course a Puruvian Cobalt isn't a hybrid, I was just pointing out that if he would be interested in that he should check those out. I have owned a Greenbottle for 2 years and had the Cobalt Redrump for about that long before the unfortunate incident. Clearly they are different, especially close up.

Originally posted by Phillip
When Rick West puts a species on his site unless it states that it is a hybrid then it is not. He is far more of an ID expert than myself and he has recognized the cobalt redrump as being the real deal. That is good enough for me. And no they look nothing like a greenbottle nor do they behave like one. They are also a good bit smaller when grown.

And yes it is one of my faves..... cryin shame that it didn't have a large enough following to actually get it bred and keep it in the hobby. I have tried but as of yet mine has yet to make a sack. She has been bred but still nothing to get pumped up about. On the bright side she hasn't molted either so she still could.

Phil

 

[Code Monkey]

Re: Re: all I have to say is this...

Originally posted by arachnopunks
BTW....of course a Puruvian Cobalt isn't a hybrid, I was just pointing out that if he would be interested in that he should check those out. I have owned a Greenbottle for 2 years and had the Cobalt Redrump for about that long before the unfortunate incident. Clearly they are different, especially close up.

I got what you were getting at, and I assume Phil did too, he just neglected to post as strongly as he sometimes has in the past.

The Cobalt redrump is nearly gone in the hobby because they're not imported anymore (being from Peru) and due to a combination of misguided "price fixing" from the dealers and perceptions of cheap avaiability from the hobbyists, were never bred much when adults were common. Given that, the implied recommendation that if someone were looking to hybridise with Cyclosternum species they should look at Cobalt redrumps seemed particularly irresponsible. If someone has a breedable Cobalt redrump and they want to breed it, they damn well better be trying to breed it with another redrump, anything else is really insulting to the hobby.

If I totally misread your intentions for bringing up the redrump, my apologies for posting on the subject again, but if I didn't...

 

[Chris]

This does seem to dredge up a lot of ill will amongst tarantula people... I can see reasons on both sides of the argument.

To be honest I really couldn't care less if someone successfully cross breeds a tarantula... as long as it is CLEARLY labelled so. Most people never breed the tarantulas they have anyway.

Dogs, cats, reptiles and all kinds of other creatures have been cross bred to make new breeds. While I am a fan of keeping bloodlines pure... I am also rather curious as to what breeds could be created from it.

What if we could get the colours of a P. Irminia in a spider that is as docile as a rose hair? Or a Versicolour the size of a T. Blondi?

Although I will never cross breed, it is all fodder for the imagination.

 

[arachnopunks]

BTW, we are against hybridizing tarantulas in any instance.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Chris
Dogs, cats, reptiles and all kinds of other creatures have been cross bred to make new breeds. While I am a fan of keeping bloodlines pure... I am also rather curious as to what breeds could be created from it.

What if we could get the colours of a P. Irminia in a spider that is as docile as a rose hair? Or a Versicolour the size of a T. Blondi?

Although I will never cross breed, it is all fodder for the imagination.

OK, one last post and then I'll move onto greener pastures for playing curmudgeon

Dogs: every single dog, no matter what the breed is Canis lupus familiaris. They're not hybrids in any way, they are the results of selective breeding *within* species.

Cats: see dogs.

Reptiles: very bad situation only made possible by people's willingness to spend money on a wasteful practice.

True hybrids are sterile. You don't get to keep crossing and selecting for what you want, you make the cross and stop there. This is the major drive behind finding such great hybrids in commercial agriculture: you have to keep going back to the source to get more seed. If the plants do produce viable seed it is nothing like the parents.

If a hybrid is fertile, then what you did was cross two subspecies and it is closer in spirit to the dog scenario above in one sense. However, given the huge introduction of variability from what was two completely separate breeding populations, the odds of getting anything desirable and stably breeding from such a situation is minute at best compared to the genuine danger of accidentally contributing to mucking up the pure subspecies lines. Further, given the timeline of selectively breeding successive generations of Ts, I don't see any of these would be Frankensteins following their work to completion. An educated guess says that it would take at least four to five generations to get a stably breeding crossbreed from two closely related subspecies, that's at least ten years with the fastest growing Ts, and more like thirty years or more in all likelihood. That's also thirty years of meticulous record keeping and maintenance of dozens to hundreds of individuals.

But, most important to note, because you will only get viable offspring from what was essentially the same species with some coloration or slight size difference, you would have been so much better off just trying to selectively breed within the same species to start with if what you wanted to do was improve it.

 

[Lost_Tarantula]

I am against hybrids. Why muck up the waters?

Death to the heathens!

*picks up his pitchfork and chases people around*









P.S. I don't mean any disrespect to those who expressed an interest in hybrids. While I am against it, I am just passing time with the whole pitchfork thing.

 

[VI6SIX]

at present I have about 25 hundred spiders in my care I personaly don't see the use of breeding curly's any more
not only are they imported but since they are so easy to breed i prefer to leave them to the novice and I have no desire to "muck up" the hobby with a bunch of hybrids I feel I know what I'm doing and am ready to use any offspring from my attempts as fodder for bigger T's the only reason I even think it might work is that I believe vagans and albopillosum are actualy sub sp. of each other that got sepperated geographicaly some time ago by probucing offspring I will have effectivly proved this point as true hybrids are sterile .This is not like mixing totally different animals like avics and blondis . I believe there is a chance this might actualy work and since I have a mature curly vagans hybrid male at my disposal I say why the hell not
I must admit though that if it does work I'll probaly keep 10 or so and try for a third generation oh and just for every ones curiosity I've been interested in spiders since I saw my first one been a hobbyist for about 12 years and work full time with them for about 16 months now I understand how delicate the hobby is and would never do anything to jepordize it.
I am just curious on how closely related vagans and curlys are and only know of one good way to find out and if this male produces offspring I'll know

 

[Chris]

Thats quite fascinating... keep us posted on the outcome of your experiment!

 

[AlbinoDragon829]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I'd say it's a good thing for putting opinions out there, even if others consider them radical. Although I think "hybridizing" tarantulas isn't a bad thing, so long as you keep the offspring quarantined from any contact with other "official" tarantulas.