Hybrid Poll

[creepa]

I think that people with any Hysterocrates sp. that isn't a wildcaught specimen or offspring of wildcaught parents
has a hybrid.

If you cant trace back the origin of your Hystyerocrates sp. there is a 90% chance ( I think ) your spider is a hybrid

The same goes with lots and lots of Avicularia sp.

 

[skinheaddave]

The same goes with lots and lots of Avicularia sp.

Don't forget the Brachypelma and Aphonopelma. Even Poecilotheria .. almost exclusively CB and increasingly so by people who can't trace the lineage beyond what pet store they bought them at. Is anyone here so naive as to feel the hobby as a whole has kept bloodlines "pure" over even the short time since founding stock came into the hobby?

Cheers,
Dave

 

[SpakR]

I agree, there is no certainty that some of the CB T's that have been in hobby for years have a "pure" bloodline. I say good. I don't understand how one can be against hybridization when we, or whomever is attempting to create a hybrid, is furthering the evolution of a species, whether for good or bad, not sure. To think that hybridization is bad is strange, imo (and I am not speaking from a moral position obviously, though I would understand if someone disagrees with hybridization due to morals). We have hybridized carnivorous plants (ie nepenthes, Sarracenia,etc of which some I own), dogs (ie labradoodle), and the list goes on and on, with no apparent apocalypse on the rise. Most species naturally hybridize in the wild as well (not sure for T's, but it is logical and reasonable to assume so). For those who believe in evolution, then one believes species have evolved through a random process called chance. Why not throw in a little "intelligent design" in the mix and create cool species. I for one would like a t.blondi hybrid but without the urticating bristles (which are hellish imo), and preferably a different color than poopoo brown.

The only aspect about this that I have issues with, which is actually more general than this topic, is my general disapproval of T's costing more than $50-75, which I find to be ridiculous. A hybrid T would cost an arm and leg, and possibly your first born, just because of novelty. I understand supply and demand and all that jazz, but apart from the arachosociety, who would pay $150+ for a damn spider, honestly? No one. Some of the these T's are more expensive than a dog or cat and don't provide the companionship that dogs and cats do (no matter how much the T hobbiest tries by fondling them, etc).

I digress...

I mean wouldn't it be cool to have a human hybrid with eyesight like an eagle, hearing like an owl, and smell like a bloodhound? Transhumanism at its finest.

This is just my opinion, of course.

Peace

 

[Anonymity82]

I'm sure glad my family didn't feel the same. I'm as muddied up as a... um, well a mudder. Pure breed breeding is racist

 

[jayefbe]

I agree, there is no certainty that some of the CB T's that have been in hobby for years have a "pure" bloodline. I say good. I don't understand how one can be against hybridization when we, or whomever is attempting to create a hybrid, is furthering the evolution of a species, whether for good or bad, not sure. To think that hybridization is bad is strange, imo (and I am not speaking from a moral position obviously, though I would understand if someone disagrees with hybridization due to morals). We have hybridized carnivorous plants (ie nepenthes, Sarracenia,etc of which some I own), dogs (ie labradoodle), and the list goes on and on, with no apparent apocalypse on the rise. Most species naturally hybridize in the wild as well (not sure for T's, but it is logical and reasonable to assume so). For those who believe in evolution, then one believes species have evolved through a random process called chance. Why not through in a little "intelligent design" in the mix and create cool species. I for one would like a t.blondi hybrid but without the urticating bristles (which are hellish imo), and preferably a different color than poopoo brown.

The only aspect about this that I have issues with, which is actually more general than this topic is my general disapproval of T's costing more than $50-75, which I find to be ridiculous. A hybrid T would cost an arm and leg, and possibly your first born, just because of novelty. I understand supply and demand and all that jazz, but apart from the arachosociety, who would pay $150+ for a damn spider, honestly? No one. Some of the these T's are more expensive than a dog or cat and don't provide the companionship that dogs and cats do (no matter how much the T hobbiest tries by fondling them, etc).

I digress...

I mean wouldn't it be cool to have a human hybrid with eyesight like an eagle, hearing like an owl, and smell like a bloodhound? Transhumanism at its finest.
This is just my opinion, of course.

Peace

Your understanding of evolution and heredity is so incredibly far off base that it would take hours to fully explain why practically everything you wrote is incorrect or not feasible. I'd suggest reading up on evolution, quantitative genetics, and speciation before making wild claims and making arguments that aren't based on reality.

 

[grayzone]

I for one would like a t.blondi hybrid but without the urticating bristles (which are hellish imo), and preferably a different color than poopoo brown.

i actually laughed way to hard at that... call me immature:biggrin:

 

[melijoc]

Im sure that the ts that we have today in our collection are one way or another a hybrid from similar species. In the wild there is no such thing as individual enclosures. If a male sees a female out there and its similar enough in appearance its gonna go for it. I wont be surprised if the b. Klassi is a hybrid of a b. Boehmi and a b. Emilia. Not an expert but just saying.

 

[ZergFront]

Your hybrids are sure impressive, Hobo. Is that blue one a spitter? :laugh:

I sure hope I don't have any hybrids. There are so many species of spider, even tarantulas alone, why tinker with them? Honestly, how can you be bored with what's avaliable already!?

Not to say I would kill a hybrid if I spotted one in my collection, but it will sure be alone all it's life. I have a P.irminia sling with a crooked stripe pattern and I wouldn't even breed her.

That is all I will say on this thread.

 

[cacoseraph]

What shd said. If anyone wants to provide the literature and specimens i would be happy to make a how to for keying out as many species as possible. Learning the general skill is a bit challenging but following a howto that i made would be pretty easyas long as a person can take good macro pics

 

[grayzone]

. I have a P.irminia sling with a crooked stripe pattern and I wouldn't even breed her.

got pics? just curious to see.... i cant remember if its Levi (crawltech) or Chad (advan) who has a pokie with wobbly/drunken looking folio.... i kinda dig it and wish I had one. Check BOTH their pic threads out .... theyre BOTH awesome

 

[SpakR]

While at the local renaissance festival today, drinking a beer and about to chomp on a turkey leg, the thought occurred to me that owl's probably don't have the best hearing since their eyes make up to 5% of its actual body weight. I should have said a cat or something, but owls still have good hearing. So I was expecting some correction on this, but I am glad the forum world overlooked this and saw my intention regarding meaning.

I also thought, I may have offended some T hobbyist on my opinion regarding T's and how much they cost (or can cost) which like I said, is ridiculous, imo. Thank you for not taking offense.

But I did not think I would be accused of not reading enough scientific books, or that my general knowledge of evolution and heredity is off based, farfetched, etc. I find it hard to respond to such a statement. I am not going to try. I am glad that it will take Jayefbe hours to explain to me how I am wrong (not because I am slow or have lack of understanding, but probably because splitting hairs is difficult to do).

However there is such a thing as a labradoodle. Transhuminism is true, though what I wrote is at the moment far fetched in reality, but I think it's still possible as technology improves and we understand more and more of the natural world. I don't think scientists will design humans with super senses as a priority (first is probably to eliminate aging and death). I don't know and I don't care really.

I am not trying to one up you guys, especially Jayefbe. I think this thread is neat and as long as people realize the meaning behind what someone is saying instead of being a forum police or nazi (and try to split hairs or solve the worlds problems one keystroke at a time), then we should be able to agree/disagree in a peaceable manner. I prefer clarity over agreement and I think my previous post was clear, though not specific in the mechanism of evolution by providing definitions of key words, etc etc.

Alright... I think now I will watch vampire diaries to learn more about evolution and hybridization when Klaus makes hybrid vampires...

Toodaloo

 

[SamuraiSid]

Im really not taking sides in this, really... Ive already filled my quota of 1 arguement on these boards, and have no wish to join another. But to add to, what will hopefully be interesting debate and not a locked thread, I offer info on Ligers in the wild... I aint no scientist and I failed biology class 3 times, so if Im out in left field all by myself, flame away if it makes you feel better

There is one place in the world, where the lions and tigers’ territories overlap. That place is in Dir India. It is believed that hundreds of years ago ligers used to live there. But there is hardly any evidence of these statements. No tracking and forensic evidence is even launched there as well. But the possibilities of ligers can not be rejected. Hybrids do occur in the natural environment. Ten percent of the animal hybrids occur in the wild where; 30 percent of the plant hybrids occur in the wild.

According to the recent documentary on National Geographic cross-breeding has been confirmed on abundance among the aquatic species specifically within the oceans that flow across the aquator. Each year a huge numbers of new species are born there. Therefore, if someone posits that ligers do not belong in the wild, or they may never exist in the wild, that is totally a wrong assumption.

source: http://www.ligerworld.com/ligers-in-the-wild.html

 

[SpakR]

You won't get one from me. The only reason I posted a comment on this was due to the initial concern of the post getting crazy. I am relatively new to this forum and I can now see their concern. There are some individuals who get pleasure from spitting hairs, being overly critical, and down right rude, because of what? I don't know really. I can guess on why.

If someone wants to be a mad scientist and create a hybrid T of some sort in their parents garage, I don't care. If someone does care about people owning a hybrid, creating a hybrid, or just doesnt agree with the hybrid shyza, due to morals or personal preference, then I won't debate that because you can't. I know the relative pros and cons for creating hybrids, but if I have a guess a hybrid T will most likely be sterile and if released in the wild will not survive, since its selection was artificial and not natural. Who knows. I don't mind a good discussion since it helps me learn new ideas and sharpens my thought process. You can read all the books in the world and just regurgitate what you've read and not internalize it. Speaking about what you've read with others helps chip away and solidify truth. Truth is what I strive for. Truth, honesty, and the golden rule. I am no authority or an expert on anything. Cool poll thread though. If anyone wants to talk about life, angels, or chupacabras, let me know. I always enjoy a fun conversation.

Peace

 

[skinheaddave]

If anyone wants to provide the literature and specimens i would be happy to make a how to for keying out as many species as possible.

It is a nice thought but unfortunately unfeasible. I started on a scorpion one back in the day but quickly realized that it was something that can't be dumbed down, per se. There are some areas where there are clear distinctions to be made between two species that are wild caught from predictable ranges etc. but beyond that you start running into trouble. You quickly realize how many IDs are truly going to be dependent upon a collection locale being known because the morphology is unclear. You also realize how many gaps and errors are in the publications. Ultimately, unless you are going back to holotypes and looking at huge selections of collected specimens, you are going to end up perpetuating the inadequate system the hobby currently uses .. but with better pictures.

(not because I am slow or have lack of understanding, but probably because splitting hairs is difficult to do).

You don't need to split hairs to show that most of what you wrote shows a deep ignorance on the subjects at hand. It likley would take hours, though it only takes a few seconds to point out that neither your labradoodle nor njnolan1 are hybrids. The thing is, I don't know that it matters for this discussion. You got your understanding of evolution from the back of a cereal box .. so what? You are in very, very good company on that front. And this debate isn't actually a debate about hybrids per se. In none of these debates does anyone raise questions around, for example, which species concept(s) we are using. A pretty fundemental point. I'm pleasantly surprised to see that people are raising naturally occuring hybrids as an issue ... though this is also tangential to the debate since it neither addresses the rates of theraphosid hybridization in the wild nor has anything to do with the plainly geographically impossible hybrids that have popped up in the hobby and those we likely do not know about.

As I see it, the real question here is how closely we want our captive populations to mirror those in the wild. Do we want complete fidelity? If so, why? If so, how close can we claim to be? I've asked these questions on here before and gotten some okay answers along with a lot of people demonstrating that they don't understand the question. In the end, we keep bugs in boxes. If that is the case, then why is it important that our labels reflect with any accuracy even our pale and deformed doppleganger of the formal taxonomic system?

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Michiel]

Owls have fantastic hearing because of their discshaped face, like a parabolic antennae, and one ear opening is slightly higher than the other, enabling them to judge distances to their prey...they can rotate their heads and aim their face to where the sound is coming from...and home in....

But I guess everyone knew that.....

Verstuurd van mijn GT-I9001 met Tapatalk

 

[Tgrip77]

i didnt vote...because im not sure how to. i think "maybe" should have been an option to pick.

when i think of how many types of tarantulas there are in the wild (850+) it makes me wonder how many are hybrids created over the centuries....technically, i think we all own a hybrid.

i feel "you people" are way to sensitive about hybridization...if it wasnt for it, we may only have 7-28 species to choose from...personally id rather choose from hundreds

 

[skinheaddave]

...if it wasnt for it, we may only have 7-28 species to choose from...personally id rather choose from hundreds

Actually, hybridization events leading to speciation are relatively rare in the grand scheme of things and require other things to play out just so.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Tgrip77]

"rare" but possible?....now add that up over the last 4.5 billion years.

= 850+ species

 

[jayefbe]

Actually, hybridization events leading to speciation are relatively rare in the grand scheme of things and require other things to play out just so.

Cheers,
Dave

I study speciation, that is my passion, my day job, and probably what I will spend much of my life studying. I follow the Biological Species Concept. While it's not perfect it's also the ONLY species concept to provide a clear definition of species and how to test for it. Most other species concepts are simply more convoluted versions of the BSC or offer definitions for which the fixation of a single nucleotide difference between populations would require that they be called different species. Coyne and Orr's book on speciation (also not perfect but very informative) goes into depth on the subject. Most publications referring to the high rates of hybridization are inherently flawed because most species classifications do not agree with any set species concept. For example, some taxonomists will define range variation in morphology as different species despite high rates of gene flow across the range. That is clearly not a different species, only local adaptation over a wide area. So any evidence claiming that hybridization is significant must be taken with a grain of salt. Most species were defined decades to centuries before anyone even considered the idea of species concepts and the genetics to unveil relatedness and gene flow between populations were not available. Retroactively using these old classifications to determine rates or hybridization are thus flawed.

I can think of only a few examples of hybrid speciation. And almost all of them occur within plants and in areas where significant human disturbance has led to wildly different habitats than normally seen in a region, or gene flow between species that wouldn't have been possible without human interference. In short, theres no current evidence to indicate that hybridization has had ANY effect on rates of speciation at all, it appears to be that incredibly rare. I'm not saying it's not possible, but there's currently no evidence to support that theory. In plants allopolyploidy will occur, but again that is rare and nearly completely specific to plants.

I personally feel that it is most interesting to keep tarantulas that most closely match their wild counterparts. Evolution by natural selection has produced an abundance of species and forms that exceed what any hobbyist could ever keep on their own. Furthermore, I feel that millions of years of evolution has produced something that exceeds what could ever be produced by man crossing related species (most of you are forgetting that only the most closely related tarantulas will interbreed). I also believe that crossing species will only muddle the species pool to the point that it will be difficult to identify anything from each other anymore. With enough hybridization we'll have Brachy mutts, and Poecilotheria mutts rather than the many beautiful and unique species within each genus. I disagree with hybridization to the point that I will NEVER purchase from or sell to or trade with anyone that even supports the idea of it. Why try to "produce" new hybrids when you can't even possibly own all existent species of tarantula? If you think you could ever produce something new that exceeds what evolution has produced over millennia, than you are surely deceiving yourself.

 

[SpakR]

First off, Dave is correct that a labradoodle is not a hybrid per the classic definition (the result of mating male/female of different species) since a Labrador and a poodle are the same species, therefore it is not a true hybrid. I should have used a better example, like a mule since this is an actual hybrid. So kudos to you Dave.

I will ignore Dave's statement that I am ignorant of evolution, and that I learned evolution from the back of a cereal box, funny, but not true. I understand how my first post may validate both Dave's and Jayefbe criticism of me, but I have been educated in it, though I may not understand all of it. In the future however, if someone writes a post that you disagree with instead of going the simple route and stating someone is ignorant, doesn't read books, etc etc without stating what was said so I have the chance of clarifying. If I need to elucidate then all I need is someone to point out which sentence to clarify. In truth, it doesn't matter. Someone thinking I am a fool is the least of my concerns. So I will not make a direct reply to Dave or Jafefbe.

I understand the concern T hobbyists have regarding the intentional hybridization of T's, and there should be a concern. For this reason, I personally do not condone breeding of any captive species at all (unless done for conservation reasons and only performed by scientists/Universities and not by laymen). I only have 4 T's in my care and they are purely just for my pleasure. Now of the 4 that I possess I cannot, nor can anyone say for certain, that the captive bred T's are not hybrids, whether accidental or on purpose. It will take years before this is apparent, and by then it is too late.

Greed is a big factor in this (hence my distaste for T's costing so much). The reptile trade has gone off the deep end with this and I hope this hobby doesn't go down the same route. Though the bigger this hobby gets and more and more people have the desire to breed their captive T's then it is inevitable. How can this be prevented is my question? My second question is how can we justify our hobby in regards to possession, while at the same time being against the WC trade? Knowing that they go hand in hand.

Also, I know I gave the impression, in previous posts, that I am for hybridization. Some of this was done in jest, but seriously I am against the practice (in all animals due to moral reasons). I ask for a pardon, as I should of known better than joke around about a serious topic.

Peace