Heterometrus (w/ a map)

kahoy

Arachnoangel
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Nice one Kahoy!

now map the rest of the islands! :p
i was acctualy mapping Isometrus maculatus, but it ended to be on every ecosystem where it cohabitates w/ Homo sapiens


if you would give me some traveling expenses, then why woudnt I?
:D

:edit

im just waiting for them on my doorsteps, i hope those hunters didnt fail on IDing them.
 
Last edited:

xsmacks

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Hi! Does anyone have a map only for H. cyaneus? Not only for Phillipines, other countrys, too. A link would be fine.
Thx
xsmacks
 

Alakdan

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kahoy,

Confirmed H. longimanus in El Nido, Palawan. That is at the NW tip of the Palawan island.
 

kahoy

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kahoy,

Confirmed H. longimanus in El Nido, Palawan. That is at the NW tip of the Palawan island.

havnt knew that yet, my fellows are just hunting around puerto prinsesa...
ill edit my pic by tommorow... :)

thanks for the info :)
 

tabor

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Very cool! I plan on visiting the Philippines/Thailand this spring. Call me crazy, but I cant wait to get in the nice hot, humid, bug filled jungles there hunting for some scorps :}

Do you have similar map for lychas/isometrus species? If not you should make one!
 

rex_arachne

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all the scientific documents that i've read list only three species of Heterometrus for the philippines, namely: H. longimanus, H. cyaneus and H. petersii. do you have any documents to prove that H. spinifer does indeed exist in the philippines? i'm just very curious. thanks.
 

tabor

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all the scientific documents that i've read list only three species of Heterometrus for the philippines, namely: H. longimanus, H. cyaneus and H. petersii. do you have any documents to prove that H. spinifer does indeed exist in the philippines? i'm just very curious. thanks.
I'd take his word for it, considering he lives there. Also the island he says theyre on is really close to the malaysian mainland, so its not that far of a stretch to imagine they could live there.
 

skinheaddave

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I'd take his word for it, considering he lives there.
That isn't the way that science works. When making a claim you need to provide evidence so that the validity of your claim can be judged. The more extrodinary the claim, the more extrodinary the evidence that is required. In this case, the evidence required should be pretty easy to put forth and the situation can be resolved. If this does indeed represent an extended range of a known species then the argument should be published in a peer reviewed journal so that it can add to the base of knowledge for all.

Cheers,
Dave
 

tabor

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I understand that Dave, but this is a forum on the internet, not a peer-reviewed journal, and in this instance i said I believed him :)

It's not like he's making some outlandish claim, the island is right off the shore of malaysia, which is confirmed to have spinifers. As far as I know there are no "official/peer-reviewed" reports of spinifers in the Philippines.

Either way its a cool map and im glad kahoy posted it :)
 

skinheaddave

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I understand that Dave, but this is a forum on the internet, not a peer-reviewed journal,
Exactly. The map constitutes a potentially fantastic bit of scientific bookkeeping. With very little funding for professional scorpionology to go on, there is a very important role for amateurs in this field. Hell, I gave a lecture to that effect at Arachnocon '05 where I argued that amateurs can make great strides at arachnology. That being said, being an amateur does not excuse you from the burden of proof that is placed on professionals.

For this map to be anything but a triviality, methodology will need to be layed out and evidence given. The ultimate forum for this is a peer reviewed article, but until then it is good that it be subjected to a less formal review. Do you think that the peer reviewed papers were not reviewed in a more casual way before they were submitted? In posting the map here, kahoy has effectively submitted it to peer review, albeit a more wattered down form than it will be subjected to if submitted for publication. If the paper can stand up to questions here then there will likely be strong case for publication.

In other words, it doesn't matter where something like this is posted -- the second you undertake the expansion of scientific knowledge the scientific method comes along for the ride and brings the burden of proof along with it.

and in this instance i said I believed him :)
No, you said "I'd believe him." "I'd" is an abbreviation for "I would." Perhaps I read it wrong, but it sounded dismissive of sauroid's question. As a side note, location should have little to do with it. Who would you trust more for a definitive identification of a shelf fungus in Hagserville, Ontario -- me because I live within a short drive of there or a mycologist from another area? At this point your acceptance of the map as drawn is a matter of faith. You may have good reason to have faith in kahoy's judgement, but you cannot honestly believe that this faith should extend to everyone else. Whether this map is correct or not should not be determined by a vote, but rather by the presented evidence.

It's not like he's making some outlandish claim,
Not at all. It is quite plausible -- but plausibility does not make it so. I think the map is a brilliant undertaking but unless it can stand up to a simple question like sauroid's, then it is useless. I, personally, am looking forward to a response from kahoy.

As far as I know there are no "official/peer-reviewed" reports of spinifers in the Philippines.
This is also my understanding.

Either way its a cool map and im glad kahoy posted it :)
As am I. I am even more glad that sauroid thought enough to question it (albeit asking for documents, which is the wrong type of evidence in this case).

Cheers,
Dave
 

tabor

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That's quite a hefty response there Dave.

I'd just like to address this one part:

Who would you trust more for a definitive identification of a shelf fungus in Hagserville, Ontario -- me because I live within a short drive of there or a mycologist from another area?
I'd more likely trust an experienced amateur mycologist from the area than some bookworm living half way around the world. ;)

Scientific literature is great, and indispensably valuable, but there is no doubt it lags behind “real world” knowledge in many areas. Kahoy is an experienced collector, and I trust his ability to ID Heterometrus ssp., therefore I consider this map far more than a “triviality”. Sauroid’s question is a good one and I understand that kahoy’s map would not stand up to scientific standards (at this point), but I was just opining to sauroid on the validity of the source of the information.

In an ideal world it would be "Fet et al" out there digging through the jungle for years at a time so that the second they discover a species in a new place they could update their online journals, but it’s not. It’s people like kahoy who live there, logging serious time out in the bush in their home country. And it's people like kahoy who I side with in cases such as these.


Had to defend all my buddies in the Philippines :)
 

tabor

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My only advice for you kahoy: Use different colors/shapes! Those all look alot alike, especially at such a low resolution! {D
 

kahoy

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wow... plenty of posts since i left this thread :D

actually those spinifers spots where considered as spinifers (by me) based on the identification on the granulations that george posted here (and based on kovarik's paper).

im 79% sure though, but those 3 specimen that i have examined before were already dead now (ive posted it here too) i already made an ID to them and went to spinifer because the granulation of their head does differ from those common H.longimanus here, i can still remember them having granulation on the lowest part of the head compared to that of h.longimanus w/c doesnt have any.

the've come to me w/ some petersii w/c i had sold to someone here on PH then sold again to other then being sold to me again (LOL! philippines is a small country)

:)
 

kahoy

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sorry for the double post...

been busy lately, so ill edit that low res map maybe by the weekend, thanks tabor :) but ill agree w/ dave :D

the reason why im looking around for those hets again is because i want to know if those claimed spinifers from palawan that ive got do really came from palawan.

and a friend of mine wants them too :D

and i want a proof too.

@tabor
your inbox is full, the treasure map of i.mac cant fit on your box... :D
 

skinheaddave

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I'd more likely trust an experienced amateur mycologist from the area than some bookworm living half way around the world. ;)
If the bookworm has access to material and the amateur is not presenting any case, then that is the wrong decision. Taxonomy happens under a microscope, not in the field.

I trust his ability to ID Heterometrus ssp.
Well, right now the ID is based on some granulation. This is fine if you are labeling things for the pet trade or IDing specimens within a known range for no particularly scientific purpose. If he wants to extend the known range of H.spinifer, however, he is going to need to compare them to the entire species description (at a minimum, still weak) or better yet compare them to some type material. The locality has also now been called into question. It sounds like you are more confident in his map than he is -- so kudos to him for maintaining a scientific mindset.

And it's people like kahoy who I side with in cases such as these.
....
Had to defend all my buddies in the Philippines :)
And this is the root of the problem. You see this whole thing as somehow adversarial. It is not -- no more than a doctoral defense is adversarial. If you want to involve yourself in a faith-based system then go with religion or sports. In those cases you will be rewarded for taking sides and punished for skepticism. Science depends on skepticism and peer review to keep moving forwards. If you have the time, track down a copy of "The Art of Scientific Investigation" by Beveridge. Very good read and a book I highly recommend to the layman interested in dabbling in science (as well as to the true academics).

And please, don't see questions as an attempt to tear down kahoy -- they are an attempt to support kahoy by making sure his endevours aren't wasted and that the results are robust.

Cheers,
Dave
 
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