Gooty Price-Fair?

[Poec54]

No, an erroneous assumption is basing info on hearsay and not fact. Fact - there has never been a documented death from the venom of a tarantula. Should new info come to light, then that statement can be revised. And I'm wary of the argument of the locals knowing better. In some cases, sure, but how many native stories involve 70' snakes or 3' spiders? Big stories require big evidence - and as of now all the evidence points to tarantula venom, while being strong in some cases, is nowhere near lethal to a human.

Good, it's settled. When are you going to let the Poec bite you?

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

What's that permit let you own??

Retics, anacondas, burms, African rocks, scrub pythons - any conditional reptile species as listen in Florida.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 07:58 PM ----------

Good, it's settled. When are you going to let the Poec bite you?

Right after you show me a bite report ending in a fatality due purely to Poeci venom.

 

[Poec54]

Right after you show me a bite report ending in a fatality due purely to Poeci venom.

Then you'll do it? That makes sense. 'If someone dies, I want to be next.'

 

[viper69]

That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha

 

[Poec54]

That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha

He's in an argumentive mood, and apparently it has to run it's course.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Then you'll do it? That makes sense. 'If someone dies, I want to be next.'

You were the one defending the guy prefering the bite of a Latrodectus to a Poeci. You take a widow bite, I'll take a Poeci bite.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:26 PM ----------

That doesn't make a lot of sense Freedum. If he shows you a Poki fatality bite report, then a bite wouldn't be prudent haha. But if there's no documentation (and there isn't), then it makes "sense" to get a bite hahaha

There's plenty of documentation showing they aren't lethal but their effects. In effect, I'm telling him I don't ever need to take the bite cause they aren't lethal.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:40 PM ----------

He's in an argumentive mood, and apparently it has to run it's course.

Nope. I'm still just shaking my head you're downplaying a widow bite but playing up a Poeci bite. 40 years experience and you're gonna defend that? Come on.

Edit - but I guess you've "run your course" as well.

 

[Poec54]

I'm still just shaking my head you're downplaying a widow bite but playing up a Poeci bite.

You're assuming a level playing field. Widows have a huge worldwide range, far more human contact, far more people get bit, & there's far better documentation of bites. They live on and in houses and barns, under picnic tables and benches, in outhouses, under piles of debris; they're everywhere. Not exactly apples to apples with a spider with a very small range, that's endangered, and lives in trees in a third world country with inadequate healthcare and reporting. Nowhere nearly as much human contact. A kid in a US suburb dies from a widow bit and it makes headlines. A kid in a remote Indian village gets bit by a spider (any spider) and dies; what are the odds you'll see a report about it in the US? Or if that Indian kid dies from a snake bite? Or from a preventable disease? Or starves to death? Doesn't make the nightly news. Some of those countries have no idea how many of it's citizens die from snakebite, which is far bigger health concern. People are dying daily from snakebites in these countries, and no one seems to be able to get reasonable number. Do you know how many are killed by cobras in SE Asia evry year, or Russell's vipers? Don't expect much interest or information from them about spiders. They have a lot bigger things to deal with than providing spider bite stats to hobbyists in the USA. A lot of tarantula species are native to third world countries where many people are poor and illiterate, and Americans generally aren't interested in the daily goings on. That's why we know very little about tropical tarantula bites. No one seems to care until a hobbyist in the US or Europe gets bit by one in his collection.

 

[viper69]

Even many scientists in India haven't seen a Poki themselves. Hobbyists in Euro and USA can ID them better!

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

You're assuming a level playing field. Widows have a huge worldwide range, far more human contact, far more people get bit, & there's far better documentation of bites. They live on and in houses and barns, under picnic tables and benches, in outhouses, under piles of debris; they're everywhere. Not exactly apples to apples with a spider with a very small range, that's endangered, and lives in trees in a third world country with inadequate healthcare and reporting. Nowhere nearly as much human contact. A kid in a US suburb dies from a widow bit and it makes headlines. A kid in a remote Indian village gets bit by a spider (any spider) and dies; what are the odds you'll see a report about it in the US? Or if that Indian kid dies from a snake bite? Or from a preventable disease? Or starves to death? Doesn't make the nightly news. Some of those countries have no idea how many of it's citizens die from snakebite, which is far bigger health concern. People are dying daily from snakebites in these countries, and no one seems to be able to get reasonable number. Do you know how many are killed by cobras in SE Asia evry year, or Russell's vipers? Don't expect much interest or information from them about spiders. They have a lot bigger things to deal with than providing spider bite stats to hobbyists in the USA. A lot of tarantula species are native to third world countries where many people are poor and illiterate, and Americans generally aren't interested in the daily goings on. That's why we know very little about tropical tarantula bites. No one seems to care until a hobbyist in the US or Europe gets bit by one in his collection.

Poec, no hobbyist has ever died from a Phoneutria bite, and yet everyone knows how venomous they are and that they are lethal. Where's the "level playing field" argument there? To touch on your keeper argument, as many bites as mave occurred In the hobby, youd think one or two would have been lethal *If* the venom were potent enough *and* with the lack of antivenom. But there haven't been any. That's a very strong argument that they're not lethal unless you happen to have an allergy (and even then that anaphylactic shock).

As for the other arguments, let's focus on the spiders and keep the politics out of it. (Despite the fact I feel the same way, it adds zero to the discussion at hand.)

---------- Post added 04-01-2014 at 07:40 AM ----------

Even many scientists in India haven't seen a Poki themselves. Hobbyists in Euro and USA can ID them better!

True but that has zero bearing on their toxicity.

 

[Smokehound714]

You were the one defending the guy prefering the bite of a Latrodectus to a Poeci. You take a widow bite, I'll take a Poeci bite.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:26 PM ----------



There's plenty of documentation showing they aren't lethal but their effects. In effect, I'm telling him I don't ever need to take the bite cause they aren't lethal.

---------- Post added 03-31-2014 at 09:40 PM ----------


Nope. I'm still just shaking my head you're downplaying a widow bite but playing up a Poeci bite. 40 years experience and you're gonna defend that? Come on.

Edit - but I guess you've "run your course" as well.

So you'd honestly rather be bit by an enormous tarantula with huge fangs, known for multiple volleys of venom-loaded bites in copious volume- compared to a small spider that tends to deliver dry bites most of the time, with small fangs? Do you know how serious a puncture wound can be? Even if a pokie didnt have venom at all, it would still be more dangerous than a widow by default, due to the mechanical injury alone..


i get bit by latrodectus quite often, yearly, due to my habit of flipping stones and logs.. if you're not a weak old man or a fetus, you're not going to be in danger. If you have a low pain threshold, you might cry though, lol.

for those who say pokies are not medically significant observe the following video:

[video=youtube;hceNe_eswQg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hceNe_eswQg[/video]

Video evidence of the potency of Pokie venom in action. Would be sweet if this dude chimed in. His entire arm was cramped up, couldnt move it at all.

 

[vespers]

Would be sweet if this dude chimed in.

I'd rather headbutt an empty soup can than have Rob return and be all melodramatic.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Yeah, smoke, I'd take the bite from a 10" Poec that's never killed anyone over the small spider that has killed. Latros are more dangerous "by default" by pure and simple virtue of the fact that there are documented deaths related to to their bite. I'm not really sure why the hell this even has to be argued - a bite from a venomous animal that *has* killed is more dangerous than a bite from a venomous animal that hasn't. How is this even debatable? Cause you've been bit by Latros and not died? Wonderful. Phoneutria bites are mild to moderate in 90% of the cases, never requiring antivenom. And their fangs are smaller. Guess, by virtue of "mechanical damage", you'd prefer a P fera bite to a P ornata?

Yeah, I completely understand Lopez's frustration.

 

[viper69]

True but that has zero bearing on their toxicity.

Never said it did, that's a ridiculous connection to make hahaha

Was just pointing out a random fact

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

I was adding a tangential fact. . At least what a friend of a friend of the family told me.

 

[viper69]

I was adding a tangential fact. . At least what a friend of a friend of the family told me.

Hahahah, well that's the 2nd time you offered up info w/out sources. Typically only the info is suspect, but now TWICE, YOU are suspect hahaha

 

[Poec54]

Yeah, I completely understand Lopez's frustration.

I'm not surprised.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

I'm not surprised.

I am. I'm surprised a 40 year veteran in the hobby who makes sure to deal in fact and the dangers of a bite would seemingly decide that a bite from a scientifically proven lethally venomous animal is *less* of a threat than a bite from an animal with no documented deaths. Especially when i recall someone spouting similar notions as smoke in a thread about Loxosceles, and you were there informing him of the dangers of the bites. I confess myself surprised and slightly disappointed.

 

[zonbonzovi]

Mod note: on topic?

Remember back in the glory days when we all adhered to the ancient forum custom of keeping a particular topic focused, by which avoiding long-winded and ceaseless tangents? I believe the topic is/was "GootyPrice-Fair?", which is another of those quagmires that gets stepped into often, with no real useful outcome. If we must continue, please narrow your gaze toward that topic, in this thread. Thanks.

And just maybe, in a completely different thread, someone can introduce some notion of what "medically significant" actually means...ya know...with fancy citations 'n stuff, free of random conjecture.

 

[bagheera]

Getting dealers in ANY field to collaborate & cooperate is like trying to herd cats.

Oh yes, I definitely understand how supply and demand are supposed to shape the market. I'm suggesting that major dealers might collaborate to defy natural market forces and ensure that the prices stay high.