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Inbreed.
Aidan
Aidan
Good Deal or What?
- Thread starter BigSam
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Actually this type of inbreeding in dogs is what is called line breeding, though it is much better if it is between and grandsire and and his grand daughter. Much less a chance ot getting genetic deficiancies... It is even better if you can get a great great grand parent\uncle for the breeding. But in the pure breed dog world, I can tell you with 100% facts that this inbreeding son to mother or vice versa a lot more than most of you sound like you are aware of. First off this is one of the ways that "sets" a breed "type"
Personally I don't like such a tight breeding as this as not only are genetic problems have the chance in showing up in the littler, but it also causes many of them to be set into a breed. Things showing up in litters are like cleft palletes and that water on the brain type deal... Later on the other things like hip\shoulder displasia shows up, sometimes inherited blind\deafness. The further back in the family you could have went would have been better. Your male would have done much, much better with your moms half sister. You almost need to add some new blood into a line breeding every time.
If you keep a pup for breeding purposes, it will have to bred to a completely different bloodline just to keep viable to where it "worth" someone breeding it. Of course that littler can then be bred back into you line breeding pedigree
How do I know all this, you ask. I used to own and breed AKC CH. Akitas say about 12-13 years and was on the dogshow circuit for about 3 years. You learn a whole lot about breeding dogs to get the traits that are important and how to try and get rid of the bad ones that had been or you bred into the line. Breeding out problems is a much harder thing to get done, and most of the time those keep showing back up even after you've spent 20 years trying to get away from it.
I suggest you read some books about breeding pure bred creature in your local library or talking to some really experienced people before you breed your male again just so that you won't be contributing to the hidden problems in a dog breed. A lot of the aggression problems in dogs like chows and pitbulls are also caused by this type of inbreeding and with each repeated breeding without the new blood strengthens its hold in the breed... You can blame some 75% of it on people that don't understand the way line breeding works like backyard breeders and puppy mills
Personally I don't like such a tight breeding as this as not only are genetic problems have the chance in showing up in the littler, but it also causes many of them to be set into a breed. Things showing up in litters are like cleft palletes and that water on the brain type deal... Later on the other things like hip\shoulder displasia shows up, sometimes inherited blind\deafness. The further back in the family you could have went would have been better. Your male would have done much, much better with your moms half sister. You almost need to add some new blood into a line breeding every time.
If you keep a pup for breeding purposes, it will have to bred to a completely different bloodline just to keep viable to where it "worth" someone breeding it. Of course that littler can then be bred back into you line breeding pedigree
How do I know all this, you ask. I used to own and breed AKC CH. Akitas say about 12-13 years and was on the dogshow circuit for about 3 years. You learn a whole lot about breeding dogs to get the traits that are important and how to try and get rid of the bad ones that had been or you bred into the line. Breeding out problems is a much harder thing to get done, and most of the time those keep showing back up even after you've spent 20 years trying to get away from it.
I suggest you read some books about breeding pure bred creature in your local library or talking to some really experienced people before you breed your male again just so that you won't be contributing to the hidden problems in a dog breed. A lot of the aggression problems in dogs like chows and pitbulls are also caused by this type of inbreeding and with each repeated breeding without the new blood strengthens its hold in the breed... You can blame some 75% of it on people that don't understand the way line breeding works like backyard breeders and puppy mills
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There are useful purposes with in breeding and line breeding (two seperate things). It intensifies the good traits, but it can also bring out the bad traits and bite you in the ass.
I'm going to use horses as an example, since that's what I know best. We did a lot of line breeding in our horses. For example, I had a young stallion with 10 crosses to Ansata Ibn Halima, considered to be one of the kings of straight Egyptian Arabians. It intensified this young colt's type, made him more refined and elegant. On him it was a good thing.
For another example, take *Bask, the Polish import that changed the face of Arabian show horses forever. *Bask was a small stallion, with not a lot of type was was athletic as all get out. People have found over the years that continually crossing the *Bask bred horses results in small offspring with thick necks and meaty heads, even if the sire and dam were of good size and type.
There are NO guarantees with breeding. To do it, and do it well you have to know the pedigree and the animals in the background because not so nice traits can and do pop up. You can breed a national champion to a national champion and end up with a dud.
BigSam, I'm not going to go off on you about inbreeding. However, I'm going to hope you and the owner of the bitch were responsible enough to at least test for genetic defects. NO dog should be bred unless it's been tested and cleared of genetic defects. And, no matter how rare a bloodline you're working with, it means nothing if the dog isn't a good example of it's breed. If one or both parents haven't been shown and done well in the ring, that animal should NOT be bred....period. The only purpose of breeding a companion animal, whether it be dog or horse, is for the betterment of the breed as a whole. Breeders are trying to breed perfection as described in the breed standard. While you might think your dog is the greatest in the world, the fact is that owners are blind to their own animals faults. That's why we have judges.
So you paid $1,000 for this dog......so what? Breeders are selling PET QUALITY puppies for more than that. $1K doesn't buy much these days.
I hope you don't think I'm slamming you, I'm not. I just have strong feelings about this. Backyard breeders piss me off because they usually don't have a clue and think they're gonna get rich selling puppies.
I'd really like to see pics when the pups arrive.
I'm going to use horses as an example, since that's what I know best. We did a lot of line breeding in our horses. For example, I had a young stallion with 10 crosses to Ansata Ibn Halima, considered to be one of the kings of straight Egyptian Arabians. It intensified this young colt's type, made him more refined and elegant. On him it was a good thing.
For another example, take *Bask, the Polish import that changed the face of Arabian show horses forever. *Bask was a small stallion, with not a lot of type was was athletic as all get out. People have found over the years that continually crossing the *Bask bred horses results in small offspring with thick necks and meaty heads, even if the sire and dam were of good size and type.
There are NO guarantees with breeding. To do it, and do it well you have to know the pedigree and the animals in the background because not so nice traits can and do pop up. You can breed a national champion to a national champion and end up with a dud.
BigSam, I'm not going to go off on you about inbreeding. However, I'm going to hope you and the owner of the bitch were responsible enough to at least test for genetic defects. NO dog should be bred unless it's been tested and cleared of genetic defects. And, no matter how rare a bloodline you're working with, it means nothing if the dog isn't a good example of it's breed. If one or both parents haven't been shown and done well in the ring, that animal should NOT be bred....period. The only purpose of breeding a companion animal, whether it be dog or horse, is for the betterment of the breed as a whole. Breeders are trying to breed perfection as described in the breed standard. While you might think your dog is the greatest in the world, the fact is that owners are blind to their own animals faults. That's why we have judges.
So you paid $1,000 for this dog......so what? Breeders are selling PET QUALITY puppies for more than that. $1K doesn't buy much these days.
I hope you don't think I'm slamming you, I'm not. I just have strong feelings about this. Backyard breeders piss me off because they usually don't have a clue and think they're gonna get rich selling puppies.
I'd really like to see pics when the pups arrive.
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If you don't like my opinion, too bad. I also think that if there is any animal that should be banned as a pet, its certainly not reptiles as so many are advocating.....but instead those mangy oversized vermin aka DOGS.
snakehunter
Arachnopeon
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- Mar 10, 2004
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KEEP your snakes, dogs are too inefficient to keep IMHO, the must be fed three times a day walked, watched groomed etc.......... snakes eat once a week or so, poop once a week or so, cost less to feed, dont have to walk them or train them. plus when dogs get wet (walk in the rain, sleet or snow) THEY REAK.
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Sam,
I'm not going to editorialize on the inbreeding... I trust that the person with the bitch was knowledgeable enough to talk through any potential mishaps with you. I know you agreed with SHD because he backed up your point, but quite frankly I think we're all thinking that he produced more useful information in that short post than you probably knew anyway, so it's not too helpful.
Anyway... I think your parents are probably fed up with a hobby they feel may be getting out of control. I know you take good care of your animals, but you've got to reach a point where enough is enough. Many habitual "animal collectors" (the kind you see on Animal Planet that have 47 dogs, 83 cats, 19 potbelly pigs, and 35 rabbits in a banr that's falling down) started their habits young. Just remember that the habits you form now will stick with you your whole life... I know it sounds stodgy and preachy, but it's actually true. Learn to enjoy the animals you have, or do like you are doing and make the tough decisions. Either way, you have no way of knowing whether you can provide for a large number of animals long term... you can't know whether you will be able to keep them through college, etc etc. If you do decide to keep the dog, I'd definitely consider giving up most of your other animals. If this is the deal your parents have agreed to, I think its fair.
I'm not going to editorialize on the inbreeding... I trust that the person with the bitch was knowledgeable enough to talk through any potential mishaps with you. I know you agreed with SHD because he backed up your point, but quite frankly I think we're all thinking that he produced more useful information in that short post than you probably knew anyway, so it's not too helpful.
Anyway... I think your parents are probably fed up with a hobby they feel may be getting out of control. I know you take good care of your animals, but you've got to reach a point where enough is enough. Many habitual "animal collectors" (the kind you see on Animal Planet that have 47 dogs, 83 cats, 19 potbelly pigs, and 35 rabbits in a banr that's falling down) started their habits young. Just remember that the habits you form now will stick with you your whole life... I know it sounds stodgy and preachy, but it's actually true. Learn to enjoy the animals you have, or do like you are doing and make the tough decisions. Either way, you have no way of knowing whether you can provide for a large number of animals long term... you can't know whether you will be able to keep them through college, etc etc. If you do decide to keep the dog, I'd definitely consider giving up most of your other animals. If this is the deal your parents have agreed to, I think its fair.
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Dave, while I agree with you 100% on the notion that inbreeding is generally poo-pooed out of an ignorance of the actual issues at hand, in dog breeding I would never downplay it unless the breeder *knows* the genetic stock 100% he's working with. So many purebreeds in the US have been ruined by inbreeding to the point that I'd say some of them will never recover without finding sufficient outside stock. In vet school they spend a large amount of their time on genetic defects and which breeds express them regularly, in other words, the breed of the dog is a diagnostic character for genetic problems (e.g. a large percentage of minature pinschers lack tear ducts). There are so many problems, deafness in dalmations, hip displaysia in many popular large breeds such as labs, golden retrievers, great pyrenese, luxating patellas in many small breeds (the min pin again), and so on.
There is such a thing as responsible inbreeding, but this sure ain't it.
There is such a thing as responsible inbreeding, but this sure ain't it.
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Chip,
I may have overreacted a bit in defense of the inbreeding. Taken in isolation, it isn't that big a deal. Put in a greater context, if the line is not being responsibly managed as a whole then you are right that it could be contributing to its downfall.
Cheers,
Dave
I may have overreacted a bit in defense of the inbreeding. Taken in isolation, it isn't that big a deal. Put in a greater context, if the line is not being responsibly managed as a whole then you are right that it could be contributing to its downfall.
Cheers,
Dave
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- Jan 27, 2004
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I know this, my mom's dog, Jake a German Shorthair Pointer ended up with hip dysplasia(sp?). There is always going to be pros and cons, it comes down to weighing each.
CM,
You have a background in vet medicine?
Laura
CM,
You have a background in vet medicine?
Laura
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Not me, but my wife is about 2 months from her DVM.
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Hey CM ask her what antibiotic I can get for puncture wounds on a dog without paying an arm and a leg for. Had an incident before I got home with my Jack Russell exploring the frog mouth tadpole ass theory.
Phil
Phil
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CM,
Does she post on here? Because there may be a day where I need to pick her brain
Laura
Does she post on here? Because there may be a day where I need to pick her brain
Laura
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
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- 987
I didnt read everyones responses so I am sure this has been covered but I have to say it.
WHY THE HELL DID YOU IMBREED YOUR DOG!!!!
Do you have any idea what that will do to generations of these animals? That is one of the most irresponsible things ever.
WHY THE HELL DID YOU IMBREED YOUR DOG!!!!
Do you have any idea what that will do to generations of these animals? That is one of the most irresponsible things ever.
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If you read everyones responses, you might know why he did...
Scott
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Well since this thread has already degenerated beyond repair - I don't see why everyone is moaning about inbreeding when breeding in general is an even bigger issue. How many unwanted dogs have been euthanized in the time it took for this thread to reach this point? Thousands? Probably closer to hundreds of thousands. A good portion of those purebreds - so that argument doesn't fly either. If there was anything we don't need more of right now, its dogs and cats.
Anyway, to the question posed - I wouldn't give up my whole invert and reptile collection for one other pet; regardless of what it was. Get the dog anyway, what are your parents going to do, make you take a 1000 dollar dog to the pound?
Rav
Anyway, to the question posed - I wouldn't give up my whole invert and reptile collection for one other pet; regardless of what it was. Get the dog anyway, what are your parents going to do, make you take a 1000 dollar dog to the pound?
Rav
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Man, if my kid did that they'd be taking the dog to the pound and getting rid of their entire invert collection. You should never push your parents that way, they will push back and everything is on their side.
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First paragraph I agree. Breeding in general is way over done(had this argument with someone as an example on a G.rosea issue on the T board) but Imbreeding on top makes matters wrose. That is the reason why dalmatinons and so many others have so many issues.Originally posted by Ravnos
Well since this thread has already degenerated beyond repair - I don't see why everyone is moaning about inbreeding when breeding in general is an even bigger issue. How many unwanted dogs have been euthanized in the time it took for this thread to reach this point? Thousands? Probably closer to hundreds of thousands. A good portion of those purebreds - so that argument doesn't fly either. If there was anything we don't need more of right now, its dogs and cats.
Anyway, to the question posed - I wouldn't give up my whole invert and reptile collection for one other pet; regardless of what it was. Get the dog anyway, what are your parents going to do, make you take a 1000 dollar dog to the pound?
Rav
Second paragraph is almost as if not more irresponsible than him inbreeding his animal. If I had a kid and he did that yeah... i would say. "Hey you spent the grand... Its not my fault you cabr listen. Now take that damn animal to the pound."
But maybe things are different in antarctica.
Skoth Unlimited
Arachnopeon
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- Jan 23, 2004
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?
well this thing was all about people opinion's on whether he should keep his invert collection or get a dog; seems to have gotten off subject, though I'll take it as an excuse to get my opinion over
inbreeding has been done, and is still being done in the wild countless times. what I worry about when hearing that this kid bred his dog to his dog's mother isn't so much that it's simple inbreeding, but that we heard that the dog's mother, and farther back along the line have all been inbred as well. if this had been the first time inbreeding had been practiced in this dog's bloodline, there wouldn't be something I thought too wrong, but that it's been done numerous times is something I'll raise my eyebrow at. it is however, a method to preserve a bloodline in a dog/cat/whatever, and it is practiced in the wild with animals such as wolves. it is also key to remember though that with wolves new members are inducted into the pack every year, not a lot, but enough to keep the bloodline from degenerating completely.
there may not be anything noticeable about this dog, or even this dog's puppies, but if inbreeding to this magnitude is continually practiced in the bloodline guaranteed there will be some kind of problems in future dogs.
everyone here seems to have some kind of experience with breeding dogs, I'm not different. I helped my friend breed dogs for a long time, pitbulls actually, and he practiced inbreeding in his pens. the situtation at hand sounds a lot like my previous experiences, in that my friend didn't bring any new blood to his pens (didn't want to spend the money when he could just inbreed them). anyway, nothing serious happened for a few years, some dogs had deformities but they were small or almost unnoticeable. after a while though it was hard to find a litter that was unneffected by the mating of mothers to sons, brothers to sisters, etc. etc... many many dogs were born blind, had missing limbs, died at a young age, were deaf, or had mental problems.
the moral to this story is that you cannot continually inbreed a dog species, no matter how rare, or how often it has worked before. the owner of this dog sounds like he wants to continue to breed his family of dogs together indefinitely, without introducing new blood because of the rarity of the species. if you want healthy dogs my friend, you may inbreed them, but you cannot continue to do so, no matter how rare they are, it simply cannot be done if you expect healthy specimens.
-T.J.
well this thing was all about people opinion's on whether he should keep his invert collection or get a dog; seems to have gotten off subject, though I'll take it as an excuse to get my opinion over
inbreeding has been done, and is still being done in the wild countless times. what I worry about when hearing that this kid bred his dog to his dog's mother isn't so much that it's simple inbreeding, but that we heard that the dog's mother, and farther back along the line have all been inbred as well. if this had been the first time inbreeding had been practiced in this dog's bloodline, there wouldn't be something I thought too wrong, but that it's been done numerous times is something I'll raise my eyebrow at. it is however, a method to preserve a bloodline in a dog/cat/whatever, and it is practiced in the wild with animals such as wolves. it is also key to remember though that with wolves new members are inducted into the pack every year, not a lot, but enough to keep the bloodline from degenerating completely.
there may not be anything noticeable about this dog, or even this dog's puppies, but if inbreeding to this magnitude is continually practiced in the bloodline guaranteed there will be some kind of problems in future dogs.
everyone here seems to have some kind of experience with breeding dogs, I'm not different. I helped my friend breed dogs for a long time, pitbulls actually, and he practiced inbreeding in his pens. the situtation at hand sounds a lot like my previous experiences, in that my friend didn't bring any new blood to his pens (didn't want to spend the money when he could just inbreed them). anyway, nothing serious happened for a few years, some dogs had deformities but they were small or almost unnoticeable. after a while though it was hard to find a litter that was unneffected by the mating of mothers to sons, brothers to sisters, etc. etc... many many dogs were born blind, had missing limbs, died at a young age, were deaf, or had mental problems.
the moral to this story is that you cannot continually inbreed a dog species, no matter how rare, or how often it has worked before. the owner of this dog sounds like he wants to continue to breed his family of dogs together indefinitely, without introducing new blood because of the rarity of the species. if you want healthy dogs my friend, you may inbreed them, but you cannot continue to do so, no matter how rare they are, it simply cannot be done if you expect healthy specimens.
-T.J.