first venomous snake

[pnshmntMMA]

Why have a horse? Or a large dog? Or cattle? They all have tremendous potential to kill you. Horses kill on average 120 people in the US alone every year, and I'm not talking people who die as a result of falling off of or being thrown by horses, either. In comparison, venomous snakes account for fewer than 12 human fatalities per year, and the majority of those are from wild, non-captive native venomous snakes. And yet, I bet you've never, ever told anyone what a "dumb idea" it is to keep a horse, and possibly you have horses or have had them yourself. Fact is, like it or not, there are thousand of venomous snake keepers in this country who don't get bitten. They enjoy keeping those animals and many have specialized in breeding "hot" species. They know the risks, unlike owners/keepers of many so-called "safe" animals. Just because YOU wouldn't want to keep a certain type of animal or are afraid of it, doesn't mean that no one else should or can.

pitbulllady

Logic isn't for everyone. Thanks for the rant. Funny how people want to ban guns, when a loaded gun locked in a safe is no danger unless stolen, a snake can move, escape, and cause trouble in the ecosystem if It escapes. I don't think they should be outlawed, in fact i agree. You should be able to have them. I'm terrified of horses. They are huge jittery creatures with tremendous power. However I hope the laws for venomous reptiles are the same as all other pets. If someone gets hurt THE OWNER should he held liable. Unless extenuating circumstances apply IE a break in, or such. I love venomous snakes I just realize the inherent danger they represent, like all pets. And I choose not to own them, one because in MD they're near impossible to get and two I have ZERO experience and such no business with an animal of that responsibility. It should be the same as the gun laws, lock them up, get permits for them.

 

[jdl]

It looks like you had some good advice about the dangers of keeping venomous, so the next question is what kind of snake do you want, exotic or native? There is a hot show that is going to be put on the first part of November in San Antonio and I believe they put it on three times a year. Next question is what are you planning to cage it in? I did not read all the posts, but hopefully you have considered how you want to cage it. There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped. It is possible to build cages that have a shift area where the snake can safely be contained while you have to do any maintanence and cleaning. Next question is what does your mentor recommend and does this mentor have all his appendages, meaning has this person had a serious bite from a venomous snake? Anyway good luck and don't get bit.

 

[kevin91172]

It looks like you had some good advice about the dangers of keeping venomous, so the next question is what kind of snake do you want, exotic or native? There is a hot show that is going to be put on the first part of November in San Antonio and I believe they put it on three times a year. Next question is what are you planning to cage it in? I did not read all the posts, but hopefully you have considered how you want to cage it. There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped. It is possible to build cages that have a shift area where the snake can safely be contained while you have to do any maintanence and cleaning. Next question is what does your mentor recommend and does this mentor have all his appendages, meaning has this person had a serious bite from a venomous snake? Anyway good luck and don't get bit.

I WILL BE THERE AT SA SHOW! PICKING UP ANOTHER CAPE AND A b&W SPITTER AND A HAJE.MY MENTOR HAS ALL HIS FINGERS AFTER 40 YEARS! BEST ADVISE IS IF YOU THINK YOU ARE EXPERIENCED ,THE SNAKE DOES NOT KNOW OR CARES GOOD LUCK AND KEEP YOUR FINGERS OUT OF THIER MOUTHS

 

[The Snark]

...There is nothing like coming home and finding your cobra has escaped.

Naw. The beetch comes when the critter hasn't escaped and just got loose. Then you have to decide who gets to sleep where.

 

[LeilaNami]

Wow guys, you sure are digging into the thread graveyard! Since my original post was in 2008 I am happy to say I found someone willing to take the time to help me learn how to care for venomous species hands on and he has given me my first species.

 

[BigJ999]

So what was your first venomous?? Everyone keeps on telling me to get a copperhead although I have a thing for Elapid snakes

 

[LeilaNami]

So what was your first venomous?? Everyone keeps on telling me to get a copperhead although I have a thing for Elapid snakes

I actually have a thread with pictures but I ended up being given Bitis rhinoceros (originally thought to be B. gabonica but it was actually from a different pair. I had been speaking with a guy about it, you know who you are! The two stripes can still exist on both species but in this case you were right!) and S. m. barbouri. Copperheads are good snakes. They can be finicky with food though.

FYI guys, Bitis rhinoceros had been elevated to species status so it is no longer Bitis gabonica rhinoceros.

 

[BigJ999]

I don't know but I like Naja spp. Naja naja in particular as well as Naja siamensis although they aren't good starter hot's maybe eventually i'll have some Naja Gaboon's are sweet looking snakes I gotta say

 

[pitbulllady]

I actually had a very similar conversation to this at the Repticon Columbia show this past weekend, with an acquaintance of mine who has kept many "hot" species, both Elapids and Vipers, for many decades. He had a particular little snake for sale that caught my eye due to its interesting pattern and coloration; turns out that it was an intergrade between a Western Massassauga(Sistrurus catenatus tergiminus) and a Desert Massassauga(S.c. edwardsii), very neat-looking little Rattler that had a pattern that was similar to, but quite unlike, either of the two "parent" species. He recommended Massassaugas over any other Crotalid, for certain. Even though its venom is drop-for-drop more potent than either its smaller cousin, the Pygmy Rattlers, or the Copperhead, they are just very mellow snakes, WAY more so than the Pygmies, which seem to be possessed of a most intense Napoleonic complex! He said you'd basically have to hurt one to get it to bite, outside of a feed response, which is a possibility with ANY snake. They have a very small venom yield, too. The one I saw, being an intergrade, was exempt from the many state laws that protect either the Western or the Desert "Massies" as Threatened or Endangered. You really don't see many people keeping Massassaugas, compared to the much-larger Crotalus species. I guess they would look "plain" or "unexciting" to many venomous keepers. Another small Rattler he was very fond of was the more-familiar Sidewinder(Crotalus cerastes), star of many a cowboy movie, in a bad way. They too, are rather mellow little snakes, easy to hook(a big plus when considering a "hot" species), typically reluctant to bite in defense. The biggest drawbacks with those are that many are wild-caught, and many wc's tend to be picky eaters, preferring lizards, or if they will eat rodents, they will only feed on native North American desert species, not domestic house mice. CB Sidewinders are much more enthusiastic feeders, often TOO enthusiastic, since I do see a lot of these at the shows that are disturbingly obese, as if they're trying to morph into Blood Pythons. According to two people I spoke with, feeding responses in those snakes that do eat is usually intense, as in Retic-like intense, and that is when a bite is most likely to occur. As long as the snake does not think it's being fed, it's unlikely(note I did not say "IMPOSSIBLE")that it will bite. These are two "hot" species that aren't often seen in collections, that are often unfortunately overlooked in favor of the bigger guys or, for a first-time venomous keeper, the Copperheads and Pygmies.

pitbulllady

 

[LeilaNami]

I actually had a very similar conversation to this at the Repticon Columbia show this past weekend, with an acquaintance of mine who has kept many "hot" species, both Elapids and Vipers, for many decades. He had a particular little snake for sale that caught my eye due to its interesting pattern and coloration; turns out that it was an intergrade between a Western Massassauga(Sistrurus catenatus tergiminus) and a Desert Massassauga(S.c. edwardsii), very neat-looking little Rattler that had a pattern that was similar to, but quite unlike, either of the two "parent" species. He recommended Massassaugas over any other Crotalid, for certain. Even though its venom is drop-for-drop more potent than either its smaller cousin, the Pygmy Rattlers, or the Copperhead, they are just very mellow snakes, WAY more so than the Pygmies, which seem to be possessed of a most intense Napoleonic complex! He said you'd basically have to hurt one to get it to bite, outside of a feed response, which is a possibility with ANY snake. They have a very small venom yield, too. The one I saw, being an intergrade, was exempt from the many state laws that protect either the Western or the Desert "Massies" as Threatened or Endangered. You really don't see many people keeping Massassaugas, compared to the much-larger Crotalus species. I guess they would look "plain" or "unexciting" to many venomous keepers. Another small Rattler he was very fond of was the more-familiar Sidewinder(Crotalus cerastes), star of many a cowboy movie, in a bad way. They too, are rather mellow little snakes, easy to hook(a big plus when considering a "hot" species), typically reluctant to bite in defense. The biggest drawbacks with those are that many are wild-caught, and many wc's tend to be picky eaters, preferring lizards, or if they will eat rodents, they will only feed on native North American desert species, not domestic house mice. CB Sidewinders are much more enthusiastic feeders, often TOO enthusiastic, since I do see a lot of these at the shows that are disturbingly obese, as if they're trying to morph into Blood Pythons. According to two people I spoke with, feeding responses in those snakes that do eat is usually intense, as in Retic-like intense, and that is when a bite is most likely to occur. As long as the snake does not think it's being fed, it's unlikely(note I did not say "IMPOSSIBLE")that it will bite. These are two "hot" species that aren't often seen in collections, that are often unfortunately overlooked in favor of the bigger guys or, for a first-time venomous keeper, the Copperheads and Pygmies.

pitbulllady

I would have to agree with all of what you've said. Sidewinders are pretty cool and just tend to hang out and do nothing until feeding time. As for pygmies, mine just likes to travel and I've never actually witnessed her striking at anything. I just have to be careful not to squish her closing the cage because she tries to make a run for it haha. I would recommend eyelash vipers (B. schlegelii) as a first venomous as well. This was the first species I had ever worked with and they tend to be rather mellow. The only issue is during feeding time they can sometimes strike and injure/kill cage mates just from the scent of mice being in the room so you need to be extra careful with those individuals.

Naja probably wouldn't be good firsts unless you work with someone's beforehand. They get rather defensive when they feel cornered, are incredibly wiggly, and eat a ton (which results in pooping a ton). They often run from the hook as fast as they can, in my experience, so I would get experience using all the equipment first before getting one. Start with a mellow snake like B. schlegelii, graduate yourself to something a little more wiggly like a cantil species and P. baroni and then maybe you'd be ready for the hit-and-runs Naja seem to like so much. You can do it that way or try working with another person's snake to see what I mean. I personally worked with young mambas and twig snakes before working with elapids which prepared me (though it really should be the other way around) so you need to be able to judge what you feel ready for. I would definitely recommend first seeing how difficult it is to get a stubborn snake on the hook. I do have to say Naja are really cool because they're very alert to what's going on around them.

EDIT: I would recommend talking to kevin91172 and Najakeeper to see if they agree with me. Those two keep various Naja while I've only worked with Naja nivea.

 

[BigJ999]

To me ive found out with regard to first venomous there is actually no good first ive heard mangrove snake,Copperhead ect. With regards to the Eyelash vipers they are stunning animals but I have no idea how potent their venom is I imagine its a hemotoxin like most vipers. Cantil's I like even though they are pretty toxic venom wise although bites are rare from what ive heard. I do like vipers though actually Pygmies,Cantil's,Copperheads and some Asian species like the Temple viper,Bamboo Viper,Eye lash vipers. Elapid wise Coral cobra's,Rinkhal's,African garter snakes as far as elapids that are far too advanced for me Western Green mamba the scaling of that Dendroaspis species is beautiful to me. I see why Mamba's get their rep though fast,highly venomous and unpredictable but they certainly are attractive snakes and very fascinating also does anyone know of any good venomous snake literature??

 

[LeilaNami]

To me ive found out with regard to first venomous there is actually no good first ive heard mangrove snake,Copperhead ect. With regards to the Eyelash vipers they are stunning animals but I have no idea how potent their venom is I imagine its a hemotoxin like most vipers. Cantil's I like even though they are pretty toxic venom wise although bites are rare from what ive heard. I do like vipers though actually Pygmies,Cantil's,Copperheads and some Asian species like the Temple viper,Bamboo Viper,Eye lash vipers. Elapid wise Coral cobra's,Rinkhal's,African garter snakes as far as elapids that are far too advanced for me Western Green mamba the scaling of that Dendroaspis species is beautiful to me. I see why Mamba's get their rep though fast,highly venomous and unpredictable but they certainly are attractive snakes and very fascinating also does anyone know of any good venomous snake literature??

That's what a lot of people would lead you to believe. There ARE good first venomous snakes as in eyelash vipers are good first when compared to something like Naja. With all snakes there is a minimum distance you should keep to minimize risk. Stay out of their striking range. With the eyelash, it tends to be their body length. It's what you are ready for in terms of experience and skill level. Cantils will bite given the chance. They also have a one strike you're out policy. If you fail to get them on the hook the first time, they intend to make it difficult in any subsequent tries :sarcasm: I intend to eventually get a pair of C. venustus because I absolutely adore Asian tree vipers. I intend to focus on what was formerly in the Trimeresurus complex. I will get to work with Rinkhals soon as my buddy bought some. Mambas are difficult because they run and they are incredibly fast. I would highly suggest finding someone to teach you but it is possible to learn on your own albeit much riskier. If you go ahead and learn on your own, I would highly suggest you get a nonvenomous species and treat it like a venomous one first. It took me 4 years to find someone to teach me and I ultimately contacted the Herpetological Society of Texas who put me in contact with a guy, who knew a guy, who knew a guy, etc. As far as literature goes, I will ask my friend on what he feels would be an appropriate source to learn.

 

[BigJ999]

Cantil's I must say are very handsome despite packing some very toxic venom and a lousy attitude but at least from what you have told me they are up front with the thing for biting. Yeah those Asian pit vipers are really really beautiful I really like coral cobra's although maybe hat's because they are a smaller elapid and are just plain beautiful to me venom with them I don't know much. Honestly ive spent more time reading about Naja venom then any other elapid venom well besides Mamba's,Taipans and Krait's. Yeah ive been told I should a nasty none-venomous species but to me it seems kinda useless because yes I could treat the snake like its venomous but its really not. But in the end its not a venomous snake yeah I do like Eyelash vipers as they come in fantastic colors

 

[pitbulllady]

Eyelash vipers have venom comparable to the other Bothrops genus members, which includes the Fer-de-Lance and the Lancehead vipers, regarded as some of the most-dangerous snakes in the world in terms of venom potency and tendency to bite. I've known two people who have been tagged by Eyelash Vipers, both small snakes, and both people nearly died. Had it not been for the fact that both were in southern Florida, and had access to the proper antivenin, which is NOT found at most medical facilities in the US, they would not have survived. Members of this genus are no joke when it comes to toxicity. Eyelashes, like most tropical arboreals, also require some rather highly-specialized care and set-ups-think Chondropythons with extremely toxic venom. These are definitely for the experienced and dedicated venomous keepers. Pretty much any arboreal snakes, venomous or not, are going to require more specialized care than what I'd consider "beginner" levels of experience.

pitbulllady

 

[BigJ999]

I figured they would end up being that toxic venom wise Bothrops type venom is a bad bite for sure and as you said fatal. It would seem these highly venomous vipers can kill just as fast as a elapid and as you said they have highly toxic venom. I have done reading about Bothrops they pack a punch venom wise and kill a lot of people every year in south america the Fer-de-lance and Half-moon vipers are the one's researched the most viper wise. I have also found out African bush vipers pack a punch despite the small size and such they can kill people pretty easily. Then again the Saw-scaled viper is a small snake as well but it is a highly venomous and unfortunately easily annoyed species that doesn't mind biting. I have seen the bites of Puff adders,Saw-scales and others and they are just terrible cytotoxic/hemotoxic mix I think although the Saw-scaled have very virulent venom. Also the russell's viper unfortunately kills a lot of people in its range

 

[LeilaNami]

Eyelash vipers have venom comparable to the other Bothrops genus members, which includes the Fer-de-Lance and the Lancehead vipers, regarded as some of the most-dangerous snakes in the world in terms of venom potency and tendency to bite. I've known two people who have been tagged by Eyelash Vipers, both small snakes, and both people nearly died. Had it not been for the fact that both were in southern Florida, and had access to the proper antivenin, which is NOT found at most medical facilities in the US, they would not have survived. Members of this genus are no joke when it comes to toxicity. Eyelashes, like most tropical arboreals, also require some rather highly-specialized care and set-ups-think Chondropythons with extremely toxic venom. These are definitely for the experienced and dedicated venomous keepers. Pretty much any arboreal snakes, venomous or not, are going to require more specialized care than what I'd consider "beginner" levels of experience.

pitbulllady

I disagree with you on this one. Regardless of venom toxicity you should always be prepared with your doctors whether or not you have antivenin yourself or you get it from another facility. They do not require highly specialized set ups at all and are kept fairly simply and successfully in a simple arboreal set up. Even if they did, it makes no difference if a person is willing to provide that set up and work hard to maintain it. As I said they were the first species I have ever worked with and during my search for my first venomous species was recommended as a first several times to me by people with lots of experience. Now that I've worked with them personally, I have to agree. I'm really not sure how the people you know got tagged as every single individual I work with doesn't give a crap about anything until they feel cornered which is generally in the container I put them in so I can clean the cage. Now as to what I said in my previous post, relative to Naja because of their behavior which in my experience has been rather mellow, they would make a better first. This does not necessarily mean that I would recommend them as a great first to someone who is trying to teach themselves.

Again, it is what you feel ready for so if you are uncomfortable working (and really you should never ever get comfortable anyway. That's when accidents happen.) with a snake that has that kind of potential as your first then don't get one (and I would still highly recommend finding someone to work with first because it is so much easier to learn).

 

[BigJ999]

To me it seems with these smaller vipers its easier to stay out of its strike range still venomous but it would be easier to avoid. Eyelashes and Saw-scaled vipers are pretty small snakes so to me it seems if you get bitten by none of them its the persons fault. Yeah the first "hot" snake thing is honestly pretty confusing because some are better then others in terms of a first hot snake but all in the end can still put the hurt on you. You know what I hate that show Fatal Attractions They make anyone who keeps anything dangerous look bad The show has attacked venomous snake owners and exotic pet owners many many times because of a few sad but could have been prevented accidents. Like the girl who had the Gaboon Viper and handled it with her bare hands then what do you know she gets bitten and dies due to ignorance I don't know if the show has attacked people who keep highly venomous spiders yet but they love to go after the venomous snake owners I think in the end their is no good first hot there is better but there is no perfect first hot I would like a coral cobra myself But im still reading about them they are very interesting although I haven't learned much about them venom wise.

 

[LeilaNami]

Animal Planet is nothing more than a channel for extremist animal rights group propaganda now. I don't even bother watching it anymore. They make these shows, some of them completely false and outright lies (ex Animal Repo), and use them to place a stigma on exotic owners (ALL exotic owners). Once they've managed to sufficiently convince the ignorant public to do away with our rights to own exotics, they will start in on dogs and cats even more.

 

[The Snark]

Animal Planet is nothing more than a channel for extremist animal rights group propaganda now. I don't even bother watching it anymore. They make these shows, some of them completely false and outright lies (ex Animal Repo), and use them to place a stigma on exotic owners (ALL exotic owners). Once they've managed to sufficiently convince the ignorant public to do away with our rights to own exotics, they will start in on dogs and cats even more.

Not agreeing or disagreeing my dear. Just curious as to what brand of soap box you prefer? Animal Planet has a point and a purpose. Bias often has reactionary roots. Exotic pet keepers are easy targets. Unarmed gamekeepers facing down poachers packing AK47s, harder to protect. Change things, suggest alternatives. Maybe start with not destroying millions of acres of forests so America can have cheap hamburgers. Or come on over here and I'll fix you up with a tasty dinner of fried tarantulas and stray dog au jus.

So what first snake did you finally choose?

 

[LeilaNami]

Haha I'm just saying I'm tired of animal rights groups and their cherry-picked science being able to infiltrate mainstream media as well as legislation. I am a part of organizations working to change things. Don't tempt me. I might take you up on that fried tarantula offer.

I have B. rhinoceros and S. m. barbouri