First hand conservation...

[SonsofArachne]

The collection, sale, captive breeding, then resale of the offspring is not conservation

Actually, "captive breeding, then resale of the offspring" is conservation - although in most cases unintentional. Captive breeding reduces demand for wc specimens, taking pressure off the species in the wild. I guess you could say it be better if no T's at all were bought, but that's unrealistic.

 

[Arthroverts]

@AphonopelmaTX, your points are completely valid; to the point on repopulation, I mentioned that in passing because there are a lot of details to be worked out, a few of which you have pointed out.
I guess I personally am wary of seeing B. simoroxigorum going the way of Pandinus imperator, which are also adept at hiding (I hear less than 1% of the total population of a scorpion colony is ever on the surface at one time, but collectors still devastated the locales of P. imperator in many areas; I can't imagine tarantulas are all that different); also it is important to consider that Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. (Borneo in particular) are being rapidly deforested despite their massive biodiversity, and therefore may need special attention.
As for studies, absolutely, but considering there are over a thousand tarantula species, not to mention many more that have yet to be described, I doubt we will be seeing very many good studies come out, especially with this species as I'm sure many scientists don't want to get caught up in its controversy.
As for picking and choosing which species to help conserve, you are absolutely right; but who said this needed to be limited to B. simoroxigorum? Why not include T. albopilosum and A. seemani in this? B. simoroxigorum could be a poster child of what's wrong with the hobby, but could it not also spur change in the hobby for the better, for tarantulas, scorpions, and other invertebrates?

Your mentioning of voting with our wallets and simply not buying them is an excellent one, and that is the question myself and others have wrestled with the most. The fact is: they are going to be imported irregardless of what we say or do; there'll always be ranks three deep behind us in line ready to buy them, and I've already seen my fair share of people to whom conservation simply isn't an issue. Also, I have seen it happen it way too many times where a cool species gets brought in, distributed to a bunch of people, and then a few years later breeders are looking for MMs and MFs, but there are none/almost none to be found since most were sold to people interested in them as only pets, making it impossible for captive breeding to continue. Then we need another import, and the strain on wild populations only grows depending on the species.

Anyway, in short, the theory goes that if we can get a rigorous captive bred population going to the point where we no longer need WC specimens/specimens born from WC parents (aside from occasional responsible introductions of new blood for genetic diversity), we can help make a dint in that demand, thus bringing prices down, thus reducing wild collection, thus reducing strain on wild populations. This argument would be moot if responsible collection practices could be established, but that is not a given in the absolute most of cases, especially where government regulation is sketchy at best.
Could this theory fail miserably? Of course. Could it work, at least in part? Of course.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that if the specimens being imported were wild caught, I do agree that we should vote with our wallets and not buy them. When it comes to CB slings that are being imported, that is a different matter in my opinion. Still the issue of condoning the original practice comes up, but that's where my second paragraph comes in for concentrating legally-obtained and CB specimens in the hands of breeders who can do something to benefit the hobby instead of having the specimens spread in one's and two's all across the nation.

See what I'm saying? It's a certainly a big issue that will likely persist long into the future, but that's my two cents, for now at least.

As I said earlier, I will be attempting to write something more complete here soon, hopefully with input from people like BenK.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Actually, "captive breeding, then resale of the offspring" is conservation - although in most cases unintentional. Captive breeding reduces demand for wc specimens, taking pressure off the species in the wild. I guess you could say it be better if no T's at at all were bought, but that's unrealistic.

I can agree that captive breeding is a form of conservation, but when I consider this I think of tigers. There are more tigers in captivity than in the wild. Sure the species is alive, but is it really conservation if there is a greater population of a species in captivity than in nature? If one defines species conservation by conserving wild populations then no, but if one defines conservation as keeping the species alive regardless, then yes.

Tarantula captive breeding programs to supply the demand for the pet trade while taking the pressure off of the need for wild caught specimens is good in theory, but does it actually work? A few dedicated people in Mexico are doing this, but I'm not sure if it is really working. One question comes to mind with the tarantula pet trade as a whole is if consumers will really want to buy tiny spiderlings over full grown adults. The dedicated specialists might, but what about all of those casual exotic pet enthusiasts buying up wild caught tarantulas from pet stores?

@Arthroverts I hate to reply to your long post with a short one, but I assure you I am thinking about all of the points you have made. Tarantula keeping is becoming a more and more popular choice of exotic pet so consideration for the long term sustainability of wild populations needs to be considered. Conservation in general is such a complex issue and unfortunately it is even more complicated for tarantulas since they are an understudied group of animals. On a personal note, I have always had a love/ hate relationship with the exotic pet trade. On one hand, I get to see so many species of tarantula I otherwise wouldn't get to if I had to travel the globe but on the other hand it infuriates me knowing how they got to my spider room. I also have a hypocritical attitude with the tarantula trade. I will gladly buy exotic wild caught adult tarantulas, but I get really pissed off when I see wild caught American Aphonopelma species for sale! Canada does not need Aphonopelma johnnycashi and Aphonopelma moderatum should not be in anyone's collection!

 

[SonsofArachne]

Tarantula captive breeding programs to supply the demand for the pet trade while taking the pressure off of the need for wild caught specimens is good in theory, but does it actually work? A few dedicated people in Mexico are doing this, but I'm not sure if it is really working. One question comes to mind with the tarantula pet trade as a whole is if consumers will really want to buy tiny spiderlings over full grown adults. The dedicated specialists might, but what about all of those casual exotic pet enthusiasts buying up wild caught tarantulas from pet stores?

Is it a perfect solution? No. But I believe it works much better than simply making export illegal, which has been shown time and again to be ineffectual. Both Brazil and Australia have complete bans on exporting wildlife - and the wildlife trade is a big problem in both places.

 

[Moebius]

Between a rock and a hard place in the end, ethics wise, when the reality is factored in. Forgive the rant, but, oof, this one really gets at me. It may be misplaced at times, but this is something of a nails on chalkboard situation for me.

I'm not a fan of hobbyists being effectively spat on in various articles (and certain people) because of commercial ties; many of us have finances tied to the endeavour because we're not independently wealthy, go figure, with oodles of disposable money. It's not exactly a cash-cow/highly profitable anything for the vast majority, let alone a possible sole source of income by default.

We do it because it's needed, we have an interest/passion in it, and the money earned generally goes back into breeding projects or otherwise maintaining the animals to lessen the blow for the bulk of us. There's a reason why folks being able to do so are very few and far between compared to the number of folks interested in them as pets. There's a reason even the CEC and Mexico's breeding program also does non-Mexican endemics and has commercial ties to make the conservation effort viable, and it's because the reality is tough. Frankly, most people could care less about "some big bug" over some cute endotherm. Most governments look at profitability and public relations more than "save this rare creepy crawly" (unless it has pharmaceutical properties or other practical applications to its biology, see horseshoe crabs and many, many more). That's an unfortunate reality that's very widespread. "What can we get out of it?" not "This is a living animal with a right to live" when it's not "eww, kill it with fire!". We're a very small niche even among the pet industry and the prices we deal with are middling compared to other exotics long since well established as pets.

There's a whole lot of noise and not much signal with many conservation efforts even being left to "the professionals" at times, to borrow a broad term. This isn't a chastisement of the folks honestly trying their best with what funding they have, domestically or in the field mind you (again, I'm not trying to be too hypocritical with my own sweeping statement though I realize it may appear that way). Simply, biopiracy isn't as rampant with multi-party strict enforcement and consequences when well funded. You get that's from governmental fumbling of the ball (assuming they even recognize the ball as existing and important) as well as internal corruption and fragrant grease. That's from governments seeing little profit in support and in habitat conservation/enforcement (barring tourism which can have it's own deleterious impact when done sloppily as we've seen with other animals), and more profit in fining the small fry while nonetheless leaving entire habitats open for strip-mining, urban development, dumping, logging and more. This doesn't excuse or mitigate the impact poaching can have, nor give a carte blanche for folks to "poach for conservation" (which is a giant load of outright BS), but it's difficult to sit by while things go to pot when you can make even -some- positive impact more directly. I'm not trying to paint hobbyists as unsung heroes or the like (though in some cases I believe some are), but we're also not the enemy by default.

Plenty of us are well aware if there's no efforts to meet the demand, it can and has had an immediate impact on the wild populations of some species. Why make it worse? The vast majority of the hobby isn't pushing to comb the land for the next new species to pilfer, but the entirety of it is nonetheless halfway vilified with sensationalism and sweeping statements, only to coyly admit that they don't have any numbers or data to back it up the bulk of the time. I'd say the majority of owners of Ts are even unaware of the issues going on, as they're your average pet-store consumer and rarely given a peek into the behind-the-scenes without some digging and research, should they choose to do much. They see a NatGeo article (another pet peeve of mine, as the consistent quality has gone downhill for those for quite some time now) and that's likely the sum total if they happen across it whether it's accurate, well researched or not. I consider spreading awareness a great thing, when it's factual and well researched. I don't find lazy vilification and unsubstantiated assumption to be that to sell a point.

So, not only do you get the joy of trying to keep a species rolling on your own without any donations or exterior institutional funding but what you put into it yourself, you get thrown under the bus in some circles for even making the attempt, doubly so when you get conservationists with the mindset that if the environment isn't there, to hell with conserving the species. Never mind there can and have been efforts to bring back environments in various countries (my own province has put efforts towards conserving or otherwise promoting native grasslands that were reduced to slivers, among reintroduction efforts of certain species successfully), just "you're fooling yourself if you think you're helping conserve anything". I call BS to that generalization.

Call it something of a deep irritation as a hobbyists/breeder, but also understandable when you have folks openly flaunt having a species before official description or afterwards from poaching, or playing outright stupid when they finally get a consequence for importing something illegally (I can think of more than one dealer like that). Those highest nails inevitably are what will get cited and used as examples nonetheless, and everyone else gets a defacto association with poachers like we're some sort of black marketeers for having an interest in keeping Ts in general. It's a very lazy and inaccurate assumption, but you still get some rather volatile statements more interested in making a point to sell an article, vs being accurate, and unavoidably they tend to fall back into our lap like a cooking grenade.

In their current state, I have no interest in Birupes. If they get put on CITES or have some substantial conservation efforts (vs token indignation with little enforcement), or a price drop from ubiquity (putting a big stymie on poaching them) I may then. It's so soon, and they entered the hobby so damn quickly I consider the entire affair enough of a mess I'd rather maintain my distance for a good period of time, even when it comes to captive breeding efforts. It doesn't sit very well for me at this point, but I'm not going to vilify those who make the dive to give captive breeding of them a serious go from existing captive stock. As is, I'm very glad articles exposing the issues with the species came to light; many of us would have been clueless without some official word to put a spotlight on the problem.

When their prices bottom out, as they are likely to ($200 CAD availability and likely to go another hundred in the next two years) from substantial captive breeding, I may reassess my own outlooks (see P. sazimai, now going for very little compared to first hitting the scene, with little to no need or desire for WC) to keep the ball rolling. It's not their price tag that's prohibitive in the end like it is with some species; we've got some Ts we spent quite a lot more on. Sure, plenty of species came form similar situations in the hobby, but by and large they're long since CB established. I really hope people will lower their price quicker regardless just to make it a quicker reality vs looking at them as pure profit. If I were to have them at this point, I'd try to pay for the initial tarantula costs via the egg-sac and drastically drop the price of the offspring each sac, just to incentive the market if possible to do the same. As is, I just don't have that capability right at this time, finances are tight and I was lucky to even squeeze an end of year purchase in.

I'd rather the cat was not only out of the bag, but domesticated, had its shots, legal paperwork in order and established via captive populations if that makes sense. I'm not going to jump ahead of the curve strictly to make a profit off them before their bottom falls out. To each their own though, so long as more and more of them flood the market. I just hope folks don't get smeared yet again for making the breeding attempt given the complex reality of the situation.

 

[Cycle of Chaos]

Birupes simoroxigorum are recently being legally (for now) imported into the US . One large dealer and one FB guy (that I know of) are taking preorders.

So I may or may not be one of those who preordered some slings. Ive bought many Ts with the the seller and he knows what he's doing. Apparently he got the Okay from USFW. They are coming in next year and the seller is asking pretty good $190 for a sling....I paid way more than that for my P.ultramarinus slings.

This may not be the best post to ask this, but ive heard this species not doing well in captivity as there is so little info. I expect these to be similar to say a chilobrachys as far as care is concerned????

 

[Frogdaddy]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.

Actually, "captive breeding, then resale of the offspring" is conservation - although in most cases unintentional. Captive breeding reduces demand for wc specimens, taking pressure off the species in the wild. I guess you could say it be better if no T's at all were bought, but that's unrealistic.

Captive breeding is not conservation! It is at best species preservation. Protecting native habitat and managing a population in situ is conservation. Perhaps if captive bred animals released back into the wild that would be a form of conservation.

 

[SonsofArachne]

So I may or may not be one of those who preordered some slings. Ive bought many Ts with the the seller and he knows what he's doing. Apparently he got the Okay from USFW. They are coming in next year and the seller is asking pretty good $190 for a sling....I paid way more than that for my P.ultramarinus slings.

This may not be the best post to ask this, but ive heard this species not doing well in captivity as there is so little info. I expect these to be similar to say a chilobrachys as far as care is concerned????

I'd say a similar webber-burrower. I will warn you they are super bolty - like huntsman level bolty - and are shy eaters, mostly doing so when left alone.

 

[Moebius]

Wow a lot to digest in this thread.


Captive breeding is not conservation! It is at best species preservation. Protecting native habitat and managing a population in situ is conservation. Perhaps if captive bred animals released back into the wild that would be a form of conservation.

That's the (sometimes misplaced) hope in all honesty, though it's unlikely in many cases; some folks are willing to send samples of their animals, others aren't (and if they expect their animals to be used for wild re-population without genetic testing, they're fooling themselves).

Semantics aside (it will turn into an argument on whether it should be defined as a type of conversation or not), I don't have an issue calling it Species Preservation over the Ark Philosophy over First Hand Conservation or whatever other term one chooses to use. Though I would definitely recommend folks take a read of https://www.amazon.com/Ethics-Ark-Welfare-Wildlife-Conservation-ebook/dp/B006Q2GJI8 sometime where it discusses these sorts of issues from multiple perspectives. It's not as cut and dry as one thinks and yes, the term conservation does get used even in terms of captive propagation/populations. It's a multi-faceted area where the answer can and often change from person to person, organization to organization depending on stance, ethical approach and philosophy.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Captive breeding is not conservation! It is at best species preservation.

This is semantics. Anything done that removes pressure from the wild population is a form conservation. While preserving habitat is most important, it is a separate issue. Doing nothing to stem the tide of animals removed from the wild, not just making removal illegal but real world solutions like cb for the pet trade, will leave you with a preserved habit devoid of the animals you were trying to protect.

 

[mantisfan101]

I will be honest here but seeing that this species was literally just discovered and that it already found its way into the pet trade somewhat disappoints me. The t looks amazing and I’d love to have it if I could but I would rather wait until there’s more field date, particulary about its status, before we go off and ship them off. Also while it is technically conservation, I still feel that unless we know more about it, it’s better left untouched.

 

[Arthroverts]

I agree that this issue isn't black-and-white, cut and dry, etc., but rather a multi-dimensional problem that will continue to plague conservation efforts. All we have are theories right now anyway: will trying to leave them alone completely help? Will trying to start captive breeding efforts work better? Perhaps we need more data before we can even come to a conclusion of which is better?

As for leaving it untouched, we can do that, but the problem is that its too late. They are going to be imported whether we like it or not. Therefore, is it better to buy as many of these up as possible to start a captive breeding program or should we hope there will be enough people who will just say "No", making the point moot?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Cycle of Chaos]

I'd say a similar webber-burrower. I will warn you they are super bolty - like huntsman level bolty - and are shy eaters, mostly doing so when left alone.

Great thank you so much for your info! Ive only seen one video from Dark Den but it really wasn't a care video. They are beautiful and by the looks of it, quick as snot.

 

[Frogdaddy]

This is semantics. Anything done that removes pressure from the wild population is a form conservation. While preserving habitat is most important, it is a separate issue. Doing nothing to stem the tide of animals removed from the wild, not just making removal illegal but real world solutions like cb for the pet trade, will leave you with a preserved habit devoid of the animals you were trying to protect.

While we may not agree on what is or isn't conservation, we do agree on the best course of action.
The proverbial cat is out of the bag so all we can do is make the best out of what we have.
The hobby as a whole has to breed what we have or what we are receiving 8n the near future. This means exchanging information with those that may have a T of the opposite sex.
We may not have the best genetic diversity but lets make use 9f what we do have.
Hopefully in the future we may be blessed with genetically diverse brood stock to supplement what is currently being released to the hobby. In the meantime lets.work with what we have at the present moment and raise every egg sac as best we can to.distribute this new species of T to as many faithful hobbyist as we can. Hopefully it will reduce the pressure on WC animals and we can produce some CB offspring and the demand for WC adults.of a questionable.legality.