Feeding vertebrates to invertebrates…choose your side!

[Hellion299]

So this is one I have wanted to get some opinions on for awhile now. Personally I like to feed my tarantulas a pinky or fuzzy a month after a fresh molt and then 15-ish days later give them a 2nd one. I feel that it gets them nice and plump for breeding and makes them less aggressive towards males. I compare this argument to the fact that me (being a 6’3, 220lb male) probably would attack, kill and devour a pizza delivery guy then steal and eat all of his pizzas if I was forced to survive on carrots for a week. Lol. Feeding tarantulas nothing but crickets is just like that! In the wild these guys get to feast on all kinds of tasty little critters! I have heard the whole chitin vs. calcium argument but come on, seriously! Give me some fresh opinions……

 

[Hobo]

Well what if I gutload my crickets with pizzas instead if carrots?

 

[paassatt]

My opinion is that boards have a plethora of threads concerning feeding verts to inverts, and the pros and cons have been debated and beaten to death, so we don't need another thread/poll concerning the topic.

Opinion given.

 

[Eagercannibals]

I would have to say no, there is no benefit for the tarantula eating vertebrates such as pinkies or mice. Some people like to give their tarantulas a varied diet which can be done with other invertebrates such as roaches. Honestly it is just a hassle for them to eat vertebrates, all the fur and bones and they do not require the calcium or digest the bones. So it just becomes an expensive meal.

 

[xStainD]

I would have to say no, there is no benefit for the tarantula eating vertebrates such as pinkies or mice. Some people like to give their tarantulas a varied diet which can be done with other invertebrates such as roaches. Honestly it is just a hassle for them to eat vertebrates, all the fur and bones and they do not require the calcium or digest the bones. So it just becomes an expensive meal.

But do we have any tangible proof of this? I've read numerous threads on this subject and have never once seen a scientific study or research paper saying that calcium is harmful to T's (if you know of one please share). I know that some people claim feeding rodents on a regular basis can cause molting problems, but is there any real evidence other than hearsay? In the wild tarantulas will eat anything they can overpower, snakes, lizards, mice, etc. all of which have bones made up of calcium. Some large T's (T. Blondi for instance) probably take down rodents much more often then you'd think considering most insects would be an unsatisfying meal for a adult. Maybe the reason this spp. often has molting problems in captivity is from a lack of calcium in their diet? I'm not saying this is the case, just a thought.

Also, I don't think a rodent would be any more difficult for a T to eat. If anything the soft skin of a rodent would be easier to digest than the exoskeleton of an insect.

P.S. Im not trying to bash you or anything, just offering my unbiased opinion (although I personally wouldn't feed any of my T's rodents just because it would break my heart throwing a mouse in with a T )

 

[Romantis]

The soft skin of a rodent might be easier to digest than the exoskeleton of an insect, but the bones are definitely not easier. They don't digest at all and end up as fecal waste. I'd say the bones alone make a rodent much more difficult to eat and digest than any invertebrate.

 

[xStainD]

The soft skin of a rodent might be easier to digest than the exoskeleton of an insect, but the bones are definitely not easier. They don't digest at all and end up as fecal waste. I'd say the bones alone make a rodent much more difficult to eat and digest than any invertebrate.

Care to elaborate on this? I've seen a buddy's G. Rosea eat a pinkie mouse (not a pleasant sight btw) and there was absolutely nothing left afterwards. Maybe this is different with the stronger bones of a more mature mouse?

 

[Hellion299]

xSatinD, now that was awesome! Lol.

See I have always heard the same thing, "don't do that your tarantula will get stuck in a molt!" But I have personally NEVER experienced this problem. I also feel that if you continue to feed a tarantula small prey items like crickets then they don't grow nearly as large. I have noticed that the majority of HEALTHY WC tarantulas seem to be bigger then ones that are captive bred and fed crickets their whole life’s, hints the small MMs you see on the boards at times. Thoughts?

 

[ranchulas]

Due to the fact that Tarantulas will tend to eat a large variety of prey items in the wild I personally don't see anything wrong with an occasional feeding. Has there been any scientific proof to back up the claims of people who state feeding mice and so on to T's is harmful??

 

[Boanerges]

To answer the question in the poll - No. Never have and never will.

 

[zonbonzovi]

Crickets are omnivores & eat all manner of things in the wild. You could conceivably feed them pinkies or pinkies fed on pizza or civet cat eyes in a Kobe beef demi-glace, for that matter.

Personally, I just find it easier to feed roaches raised on an array of bargain produce, stale cereals & cat food for those inverts that will eat them. Very rarely will I have a carnivorous invert that wont.

Frozen mammals are more expensive, infrequently available(here, anyway) & often too bulky for the invert to finish. When the invert is done, we're left with a stinking pile.

Some inverts thrive on verts. I saw many Dolomedes capturing small fish in S. Florida when I was last there. Burying beetles eat animal carcasses. Some wasps will eat the same, when available. Let's not forget about bed bugs, lice & mosquitoes. Mammal parasitoids of all stripes.

We have anecdotal evidence via the hobby that gets rehashed & parroted as gospel truth and applied to what, 900+ species that come from sometimes drasticly different habitats?! Does that seem insane to anyone else?

This is why I voted, "don't care". If you feel you must feed your invert canned spam stuffed turducken with foie gras gravy, at least document it diligently so we can all refer back to it.

 

[Ben Oliver]

i have heard the same thing with people feeding monitors mice and rats. as long as you don't use the mammals as primary feeders you sould be fine. i feed my T's a fuzzie every other month just to give them a big meal. and for the smaller T's i use a pinkie. everyone has been molting fine. and if someone can tell me or show me i will continue to feed them the same way. and my monitors i feed them 3 or 4 mice each week or a rat hopper. that is one feeding for them, they are over 36" long. and the rest of the time i feed them roaches that i breed.

 

[T Enthusiast]

There is only one genus that I would consider feeding vertebrates too, and that is Theraphosa, and even then only once they approached full size(that is to say 8-9 inches and beyond). I think it is highly unlikely that in the wild, Theraphosa would go an entire lifetime without encountering vertebrate prey, especially in an environment like the amazon which is the most biologically diverse terrestrial ecosystem on the planet. That is to say, that I think we could assume that in the wild, Theraphosa would consume several vertebrates per year.

That being said, i believe that feeding them vertebrates in captivity is still risky and dangerous, because I believe the oxygen requirements this species has once they get exceptionally large already puts them at a higher risk for molting problems. I think if we can assume that Theraphosa certainly consume several vertebrates per year(i'm talking fully mature adult females), than I think we can assume that the molting problems that are epidemic in the hobby are not so in the wild. If that was the case, I think we'd see fewer and fewer large Theraphosa sp. in the wild. (This isn't the case, everyone knows that large T.blondi, apophysis, and stirmi are imported wc -_-) They'd all be dieing from molt problems. I think BSBlondi was really onto something in his article on the T. blondi about oxygen requirements, and I think keeping this genus in a super-oxygenated environment would allow for a regular inclusion of vertebrate prey items into the diet without many problems. I don't logically think mother nature would allow this species to survive if they died from bad molts everytime they ate a snake or a mouse. On that note, I'm going to someday see if I can build an oxygen enclosure of some kind specifically to meet the oxygen requirements I believe this species needs to live a full and healthy life. (that's where I'm going with this hobby)

To sum up an already long point, I think Theraphosa can be fed vertebrates, but I would highly discourage it in captivity. They are already at risk for molting problems, I don't see need to further cause any danger.

 

[Hellion299]

Nice zonbonzovi! Lol.

I personally witnessed a centipede in Azle Texas feeding on a large field mouse in the wild. It seemed to be enjoying it's self. Lol.

---------- Post added 08-12-2011 at 03:53 PM ----------

Wow T Enthusiast, I will have to take a look at that article. Any problem I have ever seen personally as far as Theraphosa goes was due to moister. Keepers get lazy and keep their "blondi" as dry as a rose hair then wonder why it dried out. When I think Amazon and Theraphosa I think swampy, humid conditions. For me that seems to do just fine. Good ventilation to prevent mold and stagnant air and plenty of vertebrates to grow them big and strong! Lol. No molt problems here........

 

[RichRollin]

I don't see a problem so long as you aren't make vertebrates a primary source of food. I dont use pinkies or fuzzies anymore because an adult female dubia is basically the same size (and a lot cheaper) but when I did I never noticed any issues with molting or anything else.

I mean, go to Rick West's site and see how many pics there are of wild T's eating various vertebrate prey. That fact alone tells you it's probably fine on a limited basis.

 

[BobGrill]

I don't see a problem either. I think of vertebrates as an ocassional treat for Ts, not a staple food source. Personally I think many people overeact to it a bit much.

 

[Hellion299]

+1 BobGrill

 

[matthias]

I voted Zombies!

I have fed verts to inverts, I don't now. I have never bought into the the issues caused by calcium (now it is molting it used to be fang breakage)
I have two very good reasons that are completely provable and undeniable why I don't.

1) Vendors in my area will often spray their rodents for mites. This is not harmful to the herps they are normally selling two, but deadly to Tarantulas. I have seen the results of a dozen treated pinkies. A dozen dead tarantulas. This is a common practice, that I would not trust someone saying they don't do it, because someone else in their supply chain might.

2) The left overs are messy and stink! Sorry but I just don't want my house smelling like a bunch rotting, half eaten mice. And they attract flies like there is no tomorrow.

The nutrition of a roach that is well feed is so much better why would you even consider it. If you want to fatten a breeder up, try horned worms. Even after they pupate they are like a milk shake for breeders. For variety, you can mix in crickets, or supper worms.

If you must feed vert, amphibians are much better for them than mammals.

 

[Hellion299]

Yay for Team Zombies!

Great information matthias! I could defiantly see how mice being treated with chemicals could be harmful for a T, which is why I breed my own rodent feeders. As for the "dead mice bolus stick". It is true I DO have to remove the mouse bolus promptly to avoid a pretty foul smell. Lol. I have never heard of a horned worm though, you got a scientific name for them?

 

[Echolalia]

Well what if I gutload my crickets with pizzas instead if carrots?

I lol'd.

But yeah, I'd never feed vertebrates to my Ts, I'm too nervous of them getting injured in some way