Emperor scorpion and mice.

[Sir Aculeus]

Ah dang, I would've loved to fill that hole in my knowledge. I have been heavily researching scorpions since this thread was posted, and am considering a Heterometrus species as my first.

I looked through the threads of what I would consider the long-time scorpion pros on this board, and found feeding rodents to be a rare and almost nonexistent practice. Nobody has offered a satisfactory explanation for why or why not.

What's the 10th essential amino acid?

I can recall histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

Most of which are available in a wide variety of veggies and fruits, and can be transferred to insect feeders via gutloading.

Is there something available in rodent protein that I'm overlooking?

I just theorize that mammals have more complex nutrients that maybe, just maybe these large scorpions could find some benefit if they have it as an occasional treat.

edit * Studies on scorpion taxonomy I have found only include species discoveries, their evolution, various morphs, their venom and its medical significance/usage.

Google Scholar or if you still have access to your university's digital library are far better search engines than the regular google/bing etc.

 

[SpookySpooder]

I see, thank you. My quest continues

 

[Sir Aculeus]

I see, thank you. My quest continues

Studies on scorpion taxonomy I have found only include genus and species discoeries, their evolution, various morphs, their venom and its medical significance/usage.

I see, thank you. My quest continues

If you are curious about scorpions and want in depth info this is a great read... "Scorpion Biology and Research" by Dr Philip Brownell, M.DIV., Psy.D., Department of Environmental Sciences and Policy Gary Polis
It is fascinating.

 

[SpookySpooder]

Apologies for the confusion, you said;

Exactly, it is merely my theory, an educated opinion from almost three decades of experience with various scorpion keeping and breeding. Insects and arachnids need the 10 essential amino acids for growth and good health as with other animals, this much I am sure about and anyone can look this up.
I have also done extensive research on scorpions over the decades, but let me know if you find any scientific (peer reviewed) information. Would be great to find out info done by professional researchers who have the resources to do so. Cheers!

P.S. A quote from your post "Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient"

I never stated anything you described in your reply to me as scientific evidence nor did I state that animal protien is the only source of amino acids. I am not sure where you are getting all this

You also said;

I would feed H. spinifer and emps small mice 4 times a year as a treat and to add more complex amino acids and protein to their diets. It is not necessary but I do believe it can be beneficial.

I just theorize that mammals have more complex nutrients that maybe, just maybe these large scorpions could find some benefit if they have it as an occasional treat.

Based on your terminology I figured you knew something that I couldn't find to back up your claims. I was asking questions from my own mind to draw this information out of you, I did not state that you said those two questions I asked.

I appreciate the information and the study that you provided, hopefully it takes me a step closer to answering this question for myself.

 

[Sir Aculeus]

Apologies for the confusion, you said;



You also said;




Based on your terminology I figured you knew something that I couldn't find to back up your claims. I was asking questions from my own mind to draw this information out of you, I did not state that you said those two questions I asked.

I appreciate the information and the study that you provided, hopefully it takes me a step closer to answering this question for myself.

Ugh......... I never "claimed" anything and you're post was not in the form of "self-inquiry" but you in fact replied to me stating "Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient".

To which I replied that I do not have or know of any peer review studies done on scorpion diets.

I simply stated what I did with my emp scorpions which was an opinion on my lengthy experience as an educated person who has also kept and bred scorpions for 27 years. Let me give you an example of the difference between claim and sharing an opinion/experience because you keep replying to me and taking my words out of context or straight up posting things I did not say.

Example:

a claim: "Yeah feeding mice to H. Spinifer is needed since insects do not provide enough proteins and I read somewhere that mice are good for large scorpions."

sharing an opinion via experience: "I like to occasionally feed mine small mice since I think the complex amino acids found in mammals may benefit these large scorpions"

 

[SpookySpooder]

I didn't need the lesson on semantics but thank you. I apologized for wording my initial 2 questions as if you said those things, I explained they were questions I formulated after reading your post, not that I thought that you said those things.

You very clearly stated it was not necessary but that you thought it was beneficial. I wanted to inquire for your information as to why it would be beneficial, over say, just gutloading insects, and compare that to what I had read, which is why those two questions appeared. They were general questions I wanted answered, not a rebuttal to your statement. I apologize again for the confusion my wording caused.

I explained that it was your choice of terminology, specifically the words "theory, educated, extensive research, and beneficial" that led me to believe you had information for making your assessment, you clarified this was not the case, and that it was a theory based in experience.

It appears to me the disconnect in our communication came from the varied usage and interpretation of terminology. I threw out "claim" and that seems to be another disconnect.

Since you were so kind as to define for me the scientific definition of a claim, I will return the favor and define the context in which I was using the word claim.

As per Merriam-Webster:
Claim: verb
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

I didn't intend for it to come off as an interrogation nor that I didn't believe you. I simply listened to your statements to the best of my comprehension and asked questions to elicit the educated information I believed you had. My wording was not as concise or articulate as I hoped it would be. English is my 2nd language.

Again, I'm sorry if this frustrated you, it was a simple misunderstanding. I do not mean to discredit your experience or your knowledge in my pursuit for this answer, and I'm actually quite appreciative you took the time to respond as well as find that study for me.

 

[paumotu]

I have been recommended to feed a pinky to the Pandinus and other forest scorpion females when they are gravid as the nutrients are very much appreciated. I have never understood people who complain about the mess, like, just clean up after your pets? You’d pick out dead cricket which also stinks like hell so I don’t understand how that could ever be used as a reason.

 

[Sir Aculeus]

I didn't need the lesson on semantics but thank you. I apologized for wording my initial 2 questions as if you said those things, I explained they were questions I formulated after reading your post, not that I thought that you said those things.

You very clearly stated it was not necessary but that you thought it was beneficial. I wanted to inquire for your information as to why it would be beneficial, over say, just gutloading insects, and compare that to what I had read, which is why those two questions appeared. They were general questions I wanted answered, not a rebuttal to your statement. I apologize again for the confusion my wording caused.

I explained that it was your choice of terminology, specifically the words "theory, educated, extensive research, and beneficial" that led me to believe you had information for making your assessment, you clarified this was not the case, and that it was a theory based in experience.

It appears to me the disconnect in our communication came from the varied usage and interpretation of terminology. I threw out "claim" and that seems to be another disconnect.

Since you were so kind as to define for me the scientific definition of a claim, I will return the favor and define the context in which I was using the word claim.

As per Merriam-Webster:
Claim: verb
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

I didn't intend for it to come off as an interrogation nor that I didn't believe you. I simply listened to your statements to the best of my comprehension and asked questions to elicit the educated information I believed you had. My wording was not as concise or articulate as I hoped it would be. English is my 2nd language.

Again, I'm sorry if this frustrated you, it was a simple misunderstanding. I do not mean to discredit your experience or your knowledge in my pursuit for this answer, and I'm actually quite appreciative you took the time to respond as well as find that study for me.

I am not sure where this is all coming from but I accept your apology. The only one frustrated here is you and the only mistake I made was bothering to explain myself twice and now a third time. I made no claim at any time and merely offered my opinion via experience.

BTW I provided examples not definitions Do you see now how you are misconstruing what I posted? Because you keep doing it to satisfy your ego. Kindly leave me alone and stop hijacking the OP's thread/question.

I have been recommended to feed a pinky to the Pandinus and other forest scorpion females when they are gravid as the nutrients are very much appreciated. I have never understood people who complain about the mess, like, just clean up after your pets? You’d pick out dead cricket which also stinks like hell so I don’t understand how that could ever be used as a reason.

I've done the same in the past. That being said wax worms are awesome for gravid females as they are high in protein and fats and are soft bodied making it that much easier to consume.

Dead crickets stink big time! The mess left behind after an emp eats a pinky is smaller than a dead cricket.

 

[Joey Spijkers]

This got me interested, so I started searching.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351918385_COCKROACH_Periplanata_americana_MEAL_NUTRITIVE_COMPOSITION#pf2

This study found that American cockroaches contain all 9 essential amino acids. Granted, tryptophan is only there in low quantities.

Frontiers | From Farm to Fork: Crickets as Alternative Source of Protein, Minerals, and Vitamins

Globally, there is growing interest to integrate cricket-based ingredients (flour) into food products to combat food and nutrition insecurity. However, there...

www.frontiersin.org

2 examined species of cricket both contain 7 of the essential amino acids.

I wasn't able to find a similar study on mice, I assume because they aren't considered a food source for humans.

Another thought, we know the 9 essential amino acids for vertebrates, but I'm not sure if this necessarily applies to arachnids too. Do they need the same 9 amino acids in their diet? I would assume so, but I don't know if this has been studied.

 

[Sir Aculeus]

This got me interested, so I started searching.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351918385_COCKROACH_Periplanata_americana_MEAL_NUTRITIVE_COMPOSITION#pf2

This study found that American cockroaches contain all 9 essential amino acids. Granted, tryptophan is only there in low quantities.

Frontiers | From Farm to Fork: Crickets as Alternative Source of Protein, Minerals, and Vitamins

Globally, there is growing interest to integrate cricket-based ingredients (flour) into food products to combat food and nutrition insecurity. However, there...

www.frontiersin.org

2 examined species of cricket both contain 7 of the essential amino acids.

I wasn't able to find a similar study on mice, I assume because they aren't considered a food source for humans.

Another thought, we know the 9 essential amino acids for vertebrates, but I'm not sure if this necessarily applies to arachnids too. Do they need the same 9 amino acids in their diet? I would assume so, but I don't know if this has been studied.

Nice find! I see, some aminos are found in lower quantities than others and like you mentioned trypto is really low. Perhaps this is due to their lower fat content or less complex structure. I wonder what the numbers are for mice. This is why I assumed since a mouse is a more complex animal (mammal) it would offer a more potent and balanced dose of aminos when I would occasionally feed them to my emps. I did a quick search via my jobs university library which uses google scholar and has access to other universities collective database but I couldn't find anything readily so I gave up after a minute or two. I am sure I could dig something up though. The question is how much do arachnids actually synthesize and how much is waste. Would eating 10 roaches be better than a small mouse for large arachnids? Would a tiny mammal factually provide any benefit if occasionally supplemented to their diet?

From what I have read over the years all animals need the 9 essential amino acids and all animals produce their own aminos. Of course not all amino acids are absorbed or synthesized at the same rate but they are needed for metabolic purposes non the less. There is a lack of peer reviewed studies on arachnids for sure!

Commonly, aminos are broken down into nonessential, essential, conditionally essential, and ambiguous which include alanine, glycine, arginine, asparagine, aspartate, cysteine, glutamate, glutamine. isoleucine, histidine, leucine, methionine, lysine, proline, serine, phenylalanine, valine, tyrosine, tryptophan, threonine, selenocysteine and a few others I think I missed. I believe there are 20 amino acids which have been found in proteins if I am not mistaken.

For mammals, essential aminos must be provided via nutriment which include histidine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine. Humans can produce 10 aminos naturally being alanine, asparagine, aspartic acid, cysteine, glutamic acid, glutamine, glycine, proline, serine and tyrosine.

Who knows how many aminos arachnids can produce naturally and synthesize via food.This I would like to know.

*Side note: some studies have also shown that arginine is often considered the 10th essential amino acid as it pertains to homo sapien

 

[Veno Manus]

Thank you all for participating in my thread about this topic. All of your input is valued to me seriously. Good or bad I want to learn. There's no need to go back and forth at each other for differences let's keep this friendly and keep the hobby clean. Thank you again!

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

I've kept various species of scorpions for almost three decades including various centroides, androctonus, leiurus quinquestriatus, emperor and asian forest. I would feed H. spinifer and emps small mice 4 times a year as a treat and to add more complex amino acids and protein to their diets. It is not necessary but I do believe it can be beneficial. In the wild small or juvenile mice can often run into large forest scorpions and emps as well as asian forest have the size and power to catch and eat them with ease. Cheers!

PS make sure your humid scorpion enclosures have good ventilation to prevent mold and mites. Allow for dry times which is also a good time to pick up fecal matter and uneaten parts!

Yeah I’d like to hear more About the information, I was worried about feeding Ts mice because I had one have a bad molt after being fed a mouse .. this was ages ago 9+ years ago . I just assumed scorpions would have the same issues .??

Ugh......... I never "claimed" anything and you're post was not in the form of "self-inquiry" but you in fact replied to me stating "Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient".

To which I replied that I do not have or know of any peer review studies done on scorpion diets.

I simply stated what I did with my emp scorpions which was an opinion on my lengthy experience as an educated person who has also kept and bred scorpions for 27 years. Let me give you an example of the difference between claim and sharing an opinion/experience because you keep replying to me and taking my words out of context or straight up posting things I did not say.

Example:

a claim: "Yeah feeding mice to H. Spinifer is needed since insects do not provide enough proteins and I read somewhere that mice are good for large scorpions."

sharing an opinion via experience: "I like to occasionally feed mine small mice since I think the complex amino acids found in mammals may benefit these large scorpions"

hmm interesting …