Educated Opinions Please

Enki40

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
43
I have a question in regards to obligate burrowers. Does it effect the over all health & longevity of an obligate burrower if the substrate isn't deep enough for the specimen to burrow? I've seen C. crawshayi & H. lividum kept in enclosure that did not allow them to burrow. I personally don't agree with this, but that's just my opinion & preference. Have any of you long term keepers made an observation/analysis on the effects of not allowing an obligate burrower to burrow?
 

JC

Arachnolort
Old Timer
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
1,423
This is what usually happens with wild-caught obligate burrowers.

Not enough burrowing room->Cannot acclimate->Becomes stressed->Too stressed to eat->Starves to death.
 

Scoolman

Arachnolord
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
613
This is what usually happens with wild-caught obligate burrowers.

Not enough burrowing room->Cannot acclimate->Becomes stressed->Too stressed to eat->Starves to death.
I would agree with that logic. They are referred to as "obligate" burrowers for a reason. It is part of their instinctive behavior, if they are unable to provide for themselves an adequate shelter and "home" they will suffer in the long run.
 

Offkillter

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
149
I recently saw H.lividium in a pet store living in a five gallon tank on a half inch of substrate the poor guy was obviously stressed balled up in the corner.Just sad.
 

NikiP

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
540
I recently saw H.lividium in a pet store living in a five gallon tank on a half inch of substrate the poor guy was obviously stressed balled up in the corner.Just sad.
The downside to that is if you can't see what you are buying in a pet store, most people won't buy.

Edited to add: even being a tarantula keeper, I wouldn't buy a burrower from a pet store if it had room to burrow unless the store had repeatedly proven they know their stuff. With all the mislabeling, i'd be afraid I wasn't buying the right thing unless I could see it.
 

Blayde

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
58
The downside to that is if you can't see what you are buying in a pet store, most people won't buy.
The upside being that people who dont know what they want wont buy what they cant see either. They wont walk in, see a pretty blue spider, and just buy it.
 

Offkillter

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
149
The downside to that is if you can't see what you are buying in a pet store, most people won't buy.

Edited to add: even being a tarantula keeper, I wouldn't buy a burrower from a pet store if it had room to burrow unless the store had repeatedly proven they know their stuff. With all the mislabeling, i'd be afraid I wasn't buying the right thing unless I could see it.
If I plan on buying a borrower From a LPS I insist they let me dig it up first.Recently bought L.violaceopes (1 1/2" sling) from one and they had no problem with me doing this and the little guy was L.v and in good health.If they expect my business,I expect them to work with me!
 

groovyspider

Arachnoknight
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
257
If I plan on buying a borrower From a LPS I insist they let me dig it up first.Recently bought L.violaceopes (1 1/2" sling) from one and they had no problem with me doing this and the little guy was L.v and in good health.If they expect my business,I expect them to work with me!
i agree my dad want to buy me a T so he sending me like 50 $ and theres this h.lividum at a petstore he a lil guy and hes got a burrow and theres webbing so ima tell them i have my own cage cuz they charge if you take the cage its in and when they dig it up i can inspect it to make sure its ok
 

Blayde

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
58
If I plan on buying a borrower From a LPS I insist they let me dig it up first.Recently bought L.violaceopes (1 1/2" sling) from one and they had no problem with me doing this and the little guy was L.v and in good health.If they expect my business,I expect them to work with me!
Exactly what I meant. Anyone who is serious, will know what they want, and will be willing to dig it up.
 

NikiP

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
540
I see ya'lls points. I'd just rather purchase from where I know what i'm getting. Just feel bad digging up & stressing the T more.

Of course this could also be why I only just bought my first obligate burrow :rolleyes:
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 5, 2005
Messages
8,328
not always bad

i am forcing various trapdoors into strange situations and they seem to do ok. they are even more obligatey than tarantulas, i would say
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 5, 2005
Messages
8,328
well, i mean, when they are eating and molting i have a hard time saying they are doing bad


if i could get a MM i could even try breeding them


you really do need to have objective standards to judge how good a bug is doing. as it turns out there are really only three or four of them. eating, molting, mating, and making the babies. if you get something to do the first two on the list your keeping conditions are obviously at least adequate. if you get them to make the babies then you really have no basis for complaint


do i think all obligate burrowers will do equally well out of a deep burrow? nope. do i think some will do at least ok? i freakin KNOW so.
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 5, 2005
Messages
8,328
wow, you sure are a winner. come across a few of your champ posts just today


look, if someone has raised OB's in a flat setup that means it can be done. i have done it. if you can't accept that then i really don't know what to tell you.
 

B8709

Arachnoknight
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
194
Relaxxx.

I did accept it. I even called you a genius. Wasn't that nice of me?
 

JimM

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
873
I will preface my post by saying that since providing obligate burrows with adequate substrate is a simple thing to do, and since it enables them to live the way they do in the wild, then logic dicates this is the husbandry route you should take.

That being said, I've seen no actual, real world evidence to suggest that keeping them in other ways harms them...at all so long as a few other conditions are met. I've seen haplopelmas, ceratogaryus, and members of other genera (including King Baboons) kept in situations where they couldn't burrow at all, and they did just fine. They adapt as long as they're provided shelter and proper humidity.

People claiming it will harm them are, I would be willing to bet, simply repeating what they've heard rather than commenting from long experience.

I did business with a rather large, rather well known herp business that kept lots of T's without substrate, just because they were easier to deal with that way. They did just fine.

That being said...don't do it.
Give them a proper a mount of substrate. If nothing else your erring in favor of the animal.
 

rustym3talh3ad

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
885
i will agree with most of the posters before me and say if its an OB then why not allow it to do what it wants to naturally do? I have run into a few T's that by all means SHOULD burrow, and ive given them every opportunity to burrow and they wont. they just simply move about the cage like a land running terrestrial. they eat fine, seem relaxed, and make a home out of whatever random things they find about the cage. so to say that ALL OB's must burrow in order to be ok is probably a bit far fetched but its not to say we shouldnt at least give them the option.
 
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