Dyskinetic syndrome (dks)

[Andrea82]

Nope, they didn't need to molt to be healthy again. And when this works they are back to full health, like they were never ill. It's only my guess, but maybe this forced feeding is most important here (water or microelements from food keep them strong when their organism is fighting the disease?), because even the previous solution works, it was not that reliable, but still.

Is there any chance you could ask Jakub Skowronek to explain this further on here? Or maybe he has explained it on a website? I would like more details on how he worked with this. Dates, times, which species, what the symptoms were (apart from what was obvious in the video, poor spider). More data is needed to know how and why this sometimes works or not, i think.

 

[cold blood]

Jakub Skowronek, owner of the spidershop.pl, has stated that his new solution (he tried multiple things) works in 90% of the cases. You need to put tarantula in enclosure with only wet paper (like toilet paper) and keep it in 30+ degrees Celsius. Try to feed it in the meantime, and after a week it should be fine. I didn't test it myself, but he has one of the biggest, if not the biggest spider shop in the world so I believe it's legit.

You can watch older solution (no paper etc, but you can see how he is feeding it, the spider also was put on the back by the owner) here

In 1:35 he shows a female after 2 months of this treatment, before she was almost not moving her legs
In 2:48 you can see the first spider after two weeks

I will say it looked like something wasn't right...but I don't see any frantic movements like those associated with DKS symptoms in that vid

 

[Debbie Mcclure]

Her color has gone dull grey and her abdomen became balder as she refused the food, etc.. was thinking she was pre molt because if that, but now it’s hard to say if it was pre molt or if its this DKS which has seemingly taken her over now and causing weird behavior of its own.

That's really heartbreaking to hear. If one of mine comes down with that or even if they all do, I'm going to put it out of its misery. I can't stand to even think of one suffering. Im not saying that you should do that, that's just me. I hate what your going through. My hear breaks for you and esp for your kidsPlz keep me posted on your baby..bless your heart

 

[pps]

Is there any chance you could ask Jakub Skowronek to explain this further on here? Or maybe he has explained it on a website? I would like more details on how he worked with this. Dates, times, which species, what the symptoms were (apart from what was obvious in the video, poor spider). More data is needed to know how and why this sometimes works or not, i think.

I'm only a customer so no idea if he will answer to me with more details, but I will try

 

[maggiefiasco]

I watched the video and was very intrigued... but it seems like the condition of those spiders is much different than mine. I haven’t tested her in a few days, just to avoid exacerbating the condition with more stress... but last time I did, she full on attacked the tongs, then spent the next 2-3 minutes in an absolute fit, rolling and running around the enclosure with no direction or coordination. I’m not sure how I’d employ this method with her in this current state.

 

[pps]

Hi, the only info I got from him for now (I will try in the future for more) is this:
He has a lot of specimens with DKS with different conditions.
With his current method only adult males are not possible to recover.

He was interested in researching this, but it's too expensive in Poland to test them in the lab, hundreds of dollars for one specimen, and he would also need to sacrifice 10 healthy spiders to compare them.

 

[Dravyn]

I originally posted this at http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=169511, but upon thinking about it decided to repost it as a new thread so it would get more attention.

I have been communicating with a lady who managed to breed Chilean rose tarantulas (Grammostola rosea). Of the 250 or so babies originally produced she managed to follow the growth, development, and fates of about a dozen of the babies. Most of the babies were distributed to other enthusiasts while still very young. Therefore, whatever influences that may have effected them were probably quite variable and differed from household to household, tending to cancel out or nullify the majority of environmental influences.

So far, about 6 (approximately half) of the babies, now several years old and about "juvenile" size, have died with dyskinetic syndrome-like symptoms, although the mother is apparently still in good health. This immediately suggests the possibility that some expressions of the malady may be an inherited character because it seems to "cluster" in this one family in spite of the differences in their care.

Given this possibility it would be extremely interesting from a scientific point of view, if not from an aesthetic or materialistic, profit and loss standpoint, if other enthusiasts who have bred family lines of tarantulas in which DKS has been noted have also noted a tendency towards the condition cropping up in greater frequency within those family groups.

Is at least some sort of DSK inheritable? If so, is it dominant, recessive, sex linked, etc? Should we examine what scant breeding records we can unearth for the possibility? Should some of us purposely try to breed tarantulas with the condition in their family history to determine if it really is inheritable?

Here is an opportunity for some advanced enthusiasts to do some really interesting and important research.

What's sad is nobody knows how D KS starts

 

[Whitelightning777]

I realize this is an old thread but I have a quick highly important question.

How many smokers versus non smokers have had problems with DKS? I would point out that nicotine is an ingredient in many pesticides.

There are vitamin enriched gut loading foods for feeders already. From what I understand, most cricket and roach chow is enriched.

 

[crystalfreakkk]

How many smokers versus non smokers have had problems with DKS? I would point out that nicotine is an ingredient in many pesticides.

I recently was having DKS like symptoms in my Grammostola Pulchra and I am a smoker. I’m not sure how the two would be related since I don’t smoke indoors. The symptoms have seemed to subside after several weeks so I’m not sure whether she had DKS or not. My partner and I had colds before I started noticing the DKS. I used essential oils during that time and I think that maybe that could be the cause? She was near my bed at the time so I think it’s possible she could’ve been effected by it. My much larger Grammostola rosea was also near but is much bigger so it’s possible that she was more tolerant to it. That’s just my theory anyways. I’ve since moved them both and my g. Pulchra is doing better but has adopted strange almost OCD behavior. Excessive grooming where she puts her two front legs basically into her mouth and placing her legs repeated while still. Like a person with OCD might have compulsive urges to do something repeatedly. It’s probably just some more strange tarantula behavior that’s actually totally normal but just seems odd?

 

[Whitelightning777]

Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth. Passive smoke had been proven harmful to humans.

 

[dangerforceidle]

Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth.

Where did you read the relationship between nicotine and Roundup? Nicotine and glyphosate (Roundup) are very chemically dissimilar. Roundup is also a herbicidal compound, which targets "weeds" and fungi, rather than an insecticidal compound for invertebrate pest control.

Nicotine itself has been used as an insecticide for pest control.

 

[Whitelightning777]

No, it's not roundup after all.

It's these. I knew I came across it before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid

No one knows if it harms spiders.

 

[Dave Jay]

No, it's not roundup after all.

It's these. I knew I came across it before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid

No one knows if it harms spiders.

I read through that and it is certainly a possibility, it would cause the symptoms in low doses, high doses would cause paralysis and death, you would assume that ongoing exposure to low doses would be lethal eventually. In the article it mentions that exposure also leads to a decrease in the immune system leading to death from other causes. Exposure would not be limited to smokers either, exposure could come from fruit and veg or even from the air itself, in some areas it could be from all three sources.
It is still looking like exposure to many pesticides would cause the same symptoms so it is not really narrowed down to just nicotine based pesticides just yet but it's a possibility.
One thing that came to mind when I started keeping scorpions is a short documentary I saw on the Murray River and the water treatment plants and pipelines. Water snails block the pipelines so an insecticide is added to the tapwater periodically to keep the lines clear. This is a problem for aquarists that have shrimp or snails, after a water change their inverts die for no apparent reason. Most of the insecticides used in tapwater are copper based as concentrations that kill inverts are considered safe for humans and pets/stock. Copper and other heavy metals can be present in water from many sources, even private wells as it can be present naturally. For this reason aquarists use water treatments that 'neutralise' copper and other heavy metals. Dedicated aquatic invert keepers are usually reluctant to use tapwater at all, they would rather buy RO water or install their own RO units. Rainwater is rarely deemed safe for aquariums at all these days.
Because of this I treat the water I soak the coco peat in and use distilled water to moisten substrate (avoiding mineral build up over time).
Being that tarantulas drink free water, that could be a possible source of gradual poisoning by pesticides or heavy metals.

 

[Whitelightning777]

I'm sure you can get test kits for water. If the government is dumping pesticides into the water supply, that isn't classified. There has to be records of what it is and who uses it.

I use filtered water for my inverts. There filter is built into the fridge. It removed impurities like lead heavy metals etc.

 

[Dave Jay]

I'm sure you can get test kits for water. If the government is dumping pesticides into the water supply, that isn't classified. There has to be records of what it is and who uses it.

I use filtered water for my inverts. There filter is built into the fridge. It removed impurities like lead heavy metals etc.

It is really hard to find much information on our water supply, they are very vague, even in their yearly reports "within acceptable limits" is used many times. Finding info on the river it's pumped from is easier, but an actual break down of what comes out of the tap is just not to be found except where aquarists are doing their own testing , but that's limited info too. I would assume though that a dose of copper at the rate to kill aquatic inverts would be deemed "within acceptable limits" in regards to people and livestock etc.
I do think it's wise to treat tapwater if that's what you have to use, it would cost about $10/$15 to treat 10,000 litres so a bottle will last a while. A friend in Maine treats her well water because it contains heavy metals, you wouldn't think you'd have to really, but she had it tested as that is their sole water supply .
Filtering is preferable though, I would if I could but instead I use treated tap water to expand coco peat, and bottled waters for drinking and spraying.
Btw, I had meant to put a footnote on the last post, by RO I mean reverse osmosis filtered water, some Aquarium stores even sell it for people to use in their fish tanks.

 

[boina]

All evidence points to neonicotinoids not being toxic to arachnids. In fact, outbreaks of spider mites, an arachnid, have been observed after treatments with neonicotinoids as those arachnids lost their insect competitors but were not affected themselves.

Copper and other heavy metals can be present in water from many sources, even private wells as it can be present naturally.

That is really interesting. I've had an outbreak of dyskinetic symptoms in my collection lately and by now it affects about 10% of my collection. I hadn't considered water as a possible source of toxicity, but our small village gets water from a local ground water well. The water is known to contain high concentrations of iron but everyting else is 'within limits'. Now, changing ground water levels may change the concentration of minerals in the water and if just one of the farmers around here used insecticides for whatever it may end in the water... I think I'll switch my water source, just to be sure.

 

[Dave Jay]

All evidence points to neonicotinoids not being toxic to arachnids. In fact, outbreaks of spider mites, an arachnid, have been observed after treatments with neonicotinoids as those arachnids lost their insect competitors but were not affected themselves.



That is really interesting. I've had an outbreak of dyskinetic symptoms in my collection lately and by now it affects about 10% of my collection. I hadn't considered water as a possible source of toxicity, but our small village gets water from a local ground water well. The water is known to contain high concentrations of iron but everyting else is 'within limits'. Now, changing ground water levels may change the concentration of minerals in the water and if just one of the farmers around here used insecticides for whatever it may end in the water... I think I'll switch my water source, just to be sure.

I recently gave up smoking , but it's good to know about the nicotine.

People have said it's a waste of time treating the water, but I have the treatment for my fish anyway, the quality treatments will neutralise chlorine /chloromine , ammonia and heavy metals. I can't see where removing these would be harmful, so why not? The way I have always looked at fish keeping is that you eliminate as many potential sources of contamination or stress as you can, are some of the methods I use necessary? Probably not, but at least I know what WASN'T the problem.
I believe that many minor factors contribute to sucess or failure in keeping any animal rather than just one or two major factors, I have had a friend say that I have a 'death by a thousand cuts' philosophy regarding animal husbandry.

 

[RezonantVoid]

I recently was having DKS like symptoms in my Grammostola Pulchra and I am a smoker. I’m not sure how the two would be related since I don’t smoke indoors. The symptoms have seemed to subside after several weeks so I’m not sure whether she had DKS or not. My partner and I had colds before I started noticing the DKS. I used essential oils during that time and I think that maybe that could be the cause? She was near my bed at the time so I think it’s possible she could’ve been effected by it. My much larger Grammostola rosea was also near but is much bigger so it’s possible that she was more tolerant to it. That’s just my theory anyways. I’ve since moved them both and my g. Pulchra is doing better but has adopted strange almost OCD behavior. Excessive grooming where she puts her two front legs basically into her mouth and placing her legs repeated while still. Like a person with OCD might have compulsive urges to do something repeatedly. It’s probably just some more strange tarantula behavior that’s actually totally normal but just seems odd?

I just bought a mature female P.Rubiseta (an Australian species). She has transferred into her new setup okay and made lots of web, but she's been doing the exact same "OCD" thing with regular leg grooming. I don't smoke or even use deodorants etc in the room she's in, so I'm gonna put it down to the substrate being a bit too damp. I don't think it's anything too serious at the moment since she still eats, so hopefully this behaviour is just normal for T's. I'll let the substrate dry out and see if that does anything.

 

[WildSpider]

Do certain species have DKS more often?

I saw a yellow sac spider that appeared to have it a couple months back. I didn't realize anything other than tarantulas got it but it appeared to be the same thing. The sac spider died a couple days after I found it.

 

[viper69]

Do certain species have DKS more often?

I saw a yellow sac spider that appeared to have it a couple months back. I didn't realize anything other than tarantulas got it but it appeared to be the same thing. The sac spider died a couple days after I found it.

Yea the ones exposed to chemicals and such.