Do you think tarantulas are sentient? Why/why not?

[SentienceResearch]

I would be really interested to hear whether you ascribe your tarantulas sentience, and more importantly, why or why not - what does your tarantula do (or not do) that makes you think it is sentient (or not sentient)? And why do you think such a behaviour is indicative of sentience (or its lack) in the first place? (I'd also love to see links to videos showing the behaviours in question, if you have them.)

By "sentient" I mean "subjectively experiencing one's information processing in some manner". This does not have to be as intense as humans do, and the kind may be radically different to the kind humans have (e.g. humans have a vibrant experience of visual stimuli in the form of e.g. colours, whereas tarantulas clearly process primarily vibrations, and humans have intense emotions relating to interpersonal bonds, such as love, while tarantulas are not really known for their social and affectionate natures) - but do you think they have *any* experience at all, regardless of how alien or basic?

To explain the contrast more: We strongly (and probably correctly) assume that a cat, dog or octopus has a subjective experience of what is happening to them, which is why hurting them for no reason is wrong - even though that experience is presumably vastly different from our own for a creature that has eight arms, and most of its brain inside them, or a creature for which scent is such a detailed sense.
On the other hand, a simple artificial intelligence that makes up an opponent in a computer game may detect and avoid obstacles and dangers, seek out and take up resources, respond to interactions with it in various ways, mimic human distress calls when hit and - for more advanced versions - even do some basic learning; stop responding to something if it happens over and over again without a threat manifesting, or map out an area. Similarly, a laptop can detect that it is overheating, and respond to this by using the fan more. But it isn't feeling anything, the heat may destroy it, and it registers this, but it doesn't hurt it, and we therefore do not need to feel bad for "killing" it.

Which of the two would you say is more like a tarantula? Do they operate like – very strange, and not particularly bright - cats? Or more like emotionless assassin robots that occasionally encounter situations they are not programmed to handle?

When a tarantula detects and avoids a noxious stimulus, do you think it also suffers pain/distress? When it is munching a cricket or digging around in proper substrate, do you think it experiences pleasure?
When you take the bark it is hiding beneath away in order to rehouse it, is it annoyed or frightened?
Have you ever seen your tarantula appearing confused, or curious? Or seemingly engrossed in or enjoying a particular sensation?
Why do you think they interact with pingpong balls the way they do, or allow themselves to be handled? Do you think they can be bored when just sitting around like pet rocks for weeks on end, or that they are agitated if they don't, because they prefer just chilling in their hiding places?
When someone keeps their tarantulas in bad conditions - e.g. a tiny enclosure with too little substrate, too little ventilation, no hiding place, too much humidity and parasites - do you think that person is being cruel, or do you criticise them for other reasons alone?

I'd really love to hear your thoughts.

 

[The Seraph]

Yes. All animals are sentient as all animals can perceive things and think, even if to a marginal degree. When I say think, I mean "have the capacity to react to stimuli based on the firing of neurons." Based on this general and technically correct opinion, tarantulas are indeed sentient. As are dolphins, great apes, magpies, cranes, shrews, deer, monitor lizards, cichlids, goldfish, insects, hydra, jellyfish, coral (these latter three are just barely though) and everything else with a hint of a whisper of a nervous system.

 

[TriMac33]

I personally consider all mammals, insects, inverts, reptiles, plants etc. to be sentient. The degree or capacity of which they experience the world around them obviously differs greatly from one another, but I don't feel that where they are on that scale should matter as to whether they are considered sentient or not. Plants react to various stimuli, take in carbon dioxide, breathe oxygen and have a transport system through photosynthesis. They can live and they can die, and experience life even if it's not through complex emotions or critical thinking. I feel like it would be completley nonsensical to not include Tarantulas or other inverts as being sentinent. So yes, cruelty and improper care can be committed to beings like inverts because it negatively impacts how they live their life and their well being. I don't know if any of this makes sense. I'm not always great with how I word my thoughts

 

[mjzheng]

I think to some degree yes , but not a very high degree. Tarantulas seem to have different personalities, I think they do learn just in a very rudimentary way. I think they do have subtle preferences , maybe likes and dislikes. Nothing crazy complex.

I know this is mostly survival instinct and not necessarily 'thought based', but I used to have my T albo downstairs , i have a camera on her enclosure . When my dogs would sometimes suddenly bark she would get scared and jump back, hide In her legs . Her favorite spot In her enclosure was on a piece of cork bark she came with from the store i bought her at , way In the back. She'd always run to that when scared. Not in her hide, not somewhere under cover, her little familiar cork bark. I moved her enclosure to a much quieter place in my house and she now can't hear my dogs and has a much different "favorite spot". She prefers to spend 95% of her time there , she only likes to eat in a different 3rd spot . I think these little things can indicate some type of preference or thinking. She knows exactly where her water is. If I move anything In there she needs to go check out all the area to see what changed.

Maybe I'm dumb and just hopeful there is a little tiny bit of something In there , i just find it hard to believe that they operate 1000% on random instincts alone. I don't think they bond or anything

 

[Feral]

The OP is confusing too many entirely different, seperate things- sentinence, emotion, sensation of pain, learning, behavior- for me to unravel and give a real answer. But this is the gist:

I'm still reading and learning all the time, but as far as I can discern so far, the most recent scientific research on inverts concludes:
-they do have a kind of sentience, though it is different than our kind
-they can absolutely feel stress
-they are not capable of emotion, as far as we can tell right now, but there many mysteries still yet to be uncovered
-they are capable of some types of learning
-they can absolutely feel both acute and chronic pain

But let me also say that your implication that our treatment of an animal should depend on its sentience couldn't be more wrong. If an animal can feel pain, which they all can, then they can suffer. And we should avoid having them suffer. Period. It's unrelated to their capacity for sentience, emotion, learning, or anything else. Just don't hurt things that can hurt. Have compassion for all beings.

 

[VermillionFox]

Sentient yes, sapient no.

They are very much capable of thought, and have distinct personalities along with fairly complex behaviors.

Though I feel they aren't quite capable of emotions and judgments the same way we are, or to the degree.

I think at best while they may not love us, they can recognize "heavy vibrations followed by giant mean food food, hot damn!", and that should be good enough for us to know they're happy in their own way. :3

 

[Feral]

I think at best while they may not love us, they can recognize "heavy vibrations followed by giant mean food food, hot damn!", and that should be good enough for us to know they're happy in their own way. :3

You're posted was great!
Lately I've been researching T learning abilities.
And on this point you made, I want to add that it's been proven in studies that Arachnids are capable of both kinds of learning needed for your example (among other types of learning that they can do), which is Habituative and Associative. They can do Habituative learning, which means they can be desensitized to certain things (like vibrations). And they can do Associative learning, which means they can pair a signal (like lid opening) with consequence (food) so that the lid could become as much of a food signal to them as directly sensing the feeder. (Like Pavlov's famous hypersalivating dogs)

Their learning, in all the various types they've been shown to be capable of, seems to not be able to change their basic natures, though, and is only effective when it is aligned with their instincts.

But I'm reading about all kinds of things they've been shown to do, it's fascinating!

 

[Harry Haller]

No.

 

[SentienceResearch]

You're posted was great!
Lately I've been researching T learning abilities.
And on this point you made, I want to add that it's been proven in studies that Arachnids are capable of both kinds of learning needed for your example (among other types of learning that they can do), which is Habituative and Associative. They can do Habituative learning, which means they can be desensitized to certain things (like vibrations). And they can do Associative learning, which means they can pair a signal (like lid opening) with consequence (food) so that the lid could become as much of a food signal to them as directly sensing the feeder. (Like Pavlov's famous hypersalivating dogs)

Their learning, in all the various types they've been shown to be capable of, seems to not be able to change their basic natures, though, and is only effective when it is aligned with their instincts.

But I'm reading about all kinds of things they've been shown to do, it's fascinating!

Could you mention some of those things? I am very curious.

 

[Feral]

Could you mention some of those things? I am very curious.

I'm not sure what you're asking... Are you asking for links to the studies that show they exhibit Habituative and Associative leaning?

Edit- If so...

Here is Habituation and Avoidance and Spatial learning in whipscorpions:
http://britishspiders.org.uk/bulletin/130408.pdf

And this is Associative leaning in harvestman spiders:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635713001691

And here is Reversal and Complex Maze learning in tarantulas (A. hentzi):
http://britishspiders.org.uk/bulletin/120401.pdf

 

[SentienceResearch]

The OP is confusing too many entirely different, seperate things- sentinence, emotion, sensation of pain, learning, behavior- for me to unravel and give a real answer. But this is the gist:

I'm still reading and learning all the time, but as far as I can discern so far, the most recent scientific research on inverts concludes:
-they do have a kind of sentience, though it is different than our kind
-they can absolutely feel stress
-they are not capable of emotion, as far as we can tell right now, but there many mysteries still yet to be uncovered
-they are capable of some types of learning
-they can absolutely feel both acute and chronic pain

But let me also say that your implication that our treatment of an animal should depend on its sentience couldn't be more wrong. If an animal can feel pain, which they all can, then they can suffer. And we should avoid having them suffer. Period. It's unrelated to their capacity for sentience, emotion, learning, or anything else. Just don't hurt things that can hurt. Have compassion for all beings.

I love my tarantulas, and I do take care of them to the best of my ability; and beyond feeding them, I am vegan.
I am purposefully equating sentience with having qualia in a broad sense, but yes, there are multiple definitions around. But in the one I used above, this can include a wide range of pain, sense data and emotions which in turn may enable or improve their ability to act in certain ways, but you do not need the full range - let alone the specific range humans have - in order to deserve ethical consideration. Like you, I'd draw the line for that with the ability to suffer in some way, e.g. feel pain or stress. I've given numerous examples above because I am both interested in whether tarantulas are on this range at all, and where. Again, I adore my tarantulas, and could never hurt them, and find myself strongly inclined to ascribe them subjective experience and project an alien take on my own inner life on their behaviour; but I am unaware of any evidence that actually justifies this assumption.

 

[SentienceResearch]

I'm not sure what you're asking... Are you asking for links to the studies that show they exhibit Habituative and Associative leaning?

While I am particularly curious to see evidence of sentience... honestly, I just love watching tarantulas do strange stuff, or reading about them doing so. So whatever you can share without hassle to you and feel like sharing. You just said «all kinds of things they've been shown to do!» and I was curious.
Mine mainly pretend to be pet rocks, until they reveal they are actually capable of teleportation, or do random adorable things. (I once had a knocking sound in my heater, and my Caribena versicolor felt flirted with and started knocking back, for instance. She seemed heartbroken that the huge hot male never appeared.) They have clearly learnt that me entering the room or playing music doesn't mean they have to hide, and that opening their enclosure or spraying it means there is a good chance of food, and they have also mapped out their enclosures after each rehousing, but that is the extent of learning I've seen them do. I'd be delighted to hear about more they can learn.

 

[Feral]

While I am particularly curious to see evidence of sentience... honestly, I just love watching tarantulas do strange stuff, or reading about them doing so. So whatever you can share without hassle to you and feel like sharing. You just said «all kinds of things they've been shown to do!» and I was curious.
Mine mainly pretend to be pet rocks, until they reveal they are actually capable of teleportation, or do random adorable things. (I once had a knocking sound in my heater, and my Caribena versicolor felt flirted with and started knocking back, for instance. She seemed heartbroken that the huge hot male never appeared.) They have clearly learnt that me entering the room or playing music doesn't mean they have to hide, and that opening their enclosure or spraying it means there is a good chance of food, and they have also mapped out their enclosures after each rehousing, but that is the extent of learning I've seen them do. I'd be delighted to hear about more they can learn.

I edited my post above with links to arachnid learning studies. There are more, I'm sure, but those seemed most appropriate since Associative learning and Habituation was brought up.

As for the studies on acute pain, chronic pain, and stress, I can't remember what I filed them under... oops! I'd have to dig for them. If i remember where, I'll post. Otherwise it's all information that can be found using a search engine. You just gotta do the legwork. But the short answer is yes, they've proven invertebrates experience acute and chronic pain and stress.

 

[Feral]

I'm not sure what you're asking... Are you asking for links to the studies that show they exhibit Habituative and Associative leaning?

Edit- If so...

Here is Habituation and Avoidance and Spatial learning in whipscorpions:
http://britishspiders.org.uk/bulletin/130408.pdf

And this is Associative leaning in harvestman spiders:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635713001691

And here is Reversal and Complex Maze learning in tarantulas (A. hentzi):
http://britishspiders.org.uk/bulletin/120401.pdf

I still can't remember where I put the one on stress, but these'll keep you busy.
But to continue the data you asked for...

Here is a paper on Transitive Reasoning learning and memory in another invert, the paper wasp:
https://news.umich.edu/paper-wasps-capable-of-behavior-that-resembles-logical-reasoning/

Here is the abstract for a paper on invertebrate suffering:
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ufaw/aw/2001/00000010/A00101s1/art00010

Here is an article on chronic pain in insects:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190712120244.htm

And this is a meta-analysis on Subjective Experience and Consciousness in insects:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4983823/#!po=54.2553

 

[SonsofArachne]

I find it highly doubtful that tarantulas, or any other invertebrate, feel pain in any meaningful way. They will readily self-amputate a limb when said limb is trapped for a second or two. If they were able to feel pain from this it would be debilitating and defeat the purpose. I've also seen insects badly mangled or even being eaten alive continue normal behavior, i.e eating, sex, etc., as if nothing were happening.
I do not believe tarantulas are just programmed robots however as I have seen changes in their behavior due to a change occurring in their life, such as a formally bold tarantula becoming shy after a stressful rehousing.

 

[DrGilman]

Yes indeed. Other than oysters (non-sentient bivalves) I cannot think of any animal that does not have sentience. The question to me is if an animal does not have consciousness but does have a nervous system and the ability to "feel" pain, how can it be conscious of that pain. I do think you are mixing up many different things and wrapping them all under the umbrella term "sentience". Fun conversation though!

 

[Feral]

Here is a 2017 abstract discussing emotional capacity in inverts:
https://jeb.biologists.org/content/220/21/3856.abstract
This is new info to me, my previous answer in this thread to the question of emotional capacity was this

I'm still reading and learning all the time, but as far as I can discern so far, the most recent scientific research on inverts concludes:
-they are not capable of emotion, as far as we can tell right now, but there many mysteries still yet to be uncovered

So I was wrong because with this new abstract there is reference of an emotional capacity being established in a number of inverts including Arthropoda and insects. I'm still looking up the studies' source, but this abstract states
"Sea slugs, bees, crayfish, snails, crabs, flies and ants have all been shown to display various cognitive, behavioural and/or physiological phenomena that indicate internal states reminiscent of what we consider to be emotions."

So they ya go, inverts can feel their feels.

 

[Feral]

It's like some of you didn't see anything I posted.

I find it highly doubtful that tarantulas, or any other invertebrate, feel pain in any meaningful way. They will readily self-amputate a limb when said limb trapped for a second or two. If they were able to feel pain from this it would be debilitating and defeat the purpose. I've also seen insects badly mangled or even being eaten alive continue normal behavior, i.e eating, sex, etc., as if nothing were happening.
I do not believe tarantulas are just programmed robots however as I have seen changes in their behavior due to a change occurring in their life, such as formally bold tarantula becoming shy after a stressful rehousing.

Except it's been proven that inverts do experience hypersensitivity and acute pain. We've known this for about seventeen years now. More recently we've started studying chronic pain in inverts. In my post above I linked a paper from this past summer about chronic pain in inverts.

Yes, It was thought for a long time that since inverts didn't apparently have nociceptors, which we knew were critical in vertebrae pain sensation, then they couldn't feel pain. But then we discovered that they do feel pain, they just evolved an entirely alien physiology for accomplishing the same goal. It's called Convergent Evolution, and it's fairly common. It's an entirely foreign sensory system compared to humans, but they do have a system for handling pain.

I linked an abstract about suffering in inverts.
I linked an abstract about emotional capacity in inverts.
All the links I posted were just what I have on hand. Plus there's however many papers and studies out there floating in the Internet just waiting to be read.

We can't say how exactly their pain correlates to our experience of pain because it's a totally different operating system. So we don't know exactly how it feels to them, apples to oranges...

But we definitely know it feels bad and nobody likes it.

...

I really think we, as a hobby, need to be more careful about asking these types of questions, like the OP's, about people's anecdotal observations and then speculating about neural/mental functioning and capacity. Having fun telling stories and sharing information is one thing, and I'm all for that. Hypothesizing and developing theories when science doesn't yet have enough evidence to prove anything, also fun and I'm all for it. But having definitive answers from the scientific community yet still spreading around speculation and falsehoods and misinformation couched as "science" is detrimental to everyone!

We need to be more careful about what supposed "truths" we parrot. Many people in the hobby, who should presumably be much better educated on these matters than an lay person, still cough up lines like
"inverts can't feel pain" -proven false
"inverts aren't sentient"- proven false
"inverts can't learn" -proven false
"inverts can't suffer" -still looking, but most evidence says false
"inverts are incapable of emotion" -proven false

Proven. With science. By scientists.

I'd draw the line for that with the ability to suffer in some way, e.g. feel pain or stress.

What? I had just given you scientific proof that they can feel both pain and stress. Huh?

It's been happening within this thread! We'll have no idea if a thing is actually technically true, but we keep repeating these falsehoods anyway, over and over, spreading the lies.
Don't we have enough misinformation in the hobby already?
People even continue to parrot these untruths in this thread even after I've provided scientific proof to show them as falsehoods.
Huh? I don't understand.

We need to smarten up and pay attention, friends. We can do better.

 

[SonsofArachne]

It's like some of you didn't see anything I posted.

I did see what you posted, but did you read what I wrote? As in "feel pain in a meaningful way" - A tarantula could not easily throw off a leg if it felt pain similar to what a human would feel if a limb were suddenly amputated - it would go into shock. They may feel something, but not the massive pain we would feel. I've also seen film of a grasshopper continue to eat grass as if nothing was happening while a mantis was eating its body - if it were really in pain why would it continue normal behavior like eating?

 

[DrGilman]

I strongly suggest reading this. Not many publications as reputable as this other than maybe “nature”. It puts the entire discussion to rest.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/7/eaaw4099