Desert/Arid Species Molting?

[gzophia]

Hello everyone,

I have a question for a while about scorpion husbandry that I want to put out: how do you support molting in desert/arid species? I know that some humidity is needed for some species, but how should this be provided with mycosis in mind? I am thinking of species like Paravaejovis spp. and Smeringurus mesaensis. Also, how does this apply to very young juveniles? I have heard that smaller instars of virtually all arthropods are more prone to desiccation.

From what I have read, some species like Hadrurus arizonensis are notorious for having molting issues, while others like Smeringurus mesaensis don't. I am just wondering what should generally be done for these animals.
I would normally buy mature adults, but they are very hard to come by in my area. For this reason, I am usually forced to stick with subadults (which is why I avoid Hadrurus spp.). I want to make sure they molt properly.

I am a heavy AB indexer, but I haven't found enough satisfactory info on this topic, so I thought I would ask for more recent info and experiences.

Thanks.

 

[MorbidArachnid]

Wish I had more info on Smeringurus mesaensis, I've only kept adults. I want to breed them, but my pairings haven't taken so far, so maybe one of my WC females will drop a brood and I can investigate this further. As far as little Vaejovis and Diplocentrus, my personal take is they seek out much more humid microclimates than their adult counterparts. I have some tin foil hat theories about scorpions and moisture, I think burrows are more humid than the surrounding areas, and also deserts have a lot more moisture tucked away than people expect. I mean, just look at pictures of the Mojave and Arizona deserts, there's usually way more plant life around than people expect. Burrowing in plant roots or on plants gives more humidity than open sand, plants are drawing up water from deep in the ground and through transpiration are giving off small amounts of moisture. Deserts also get pretty cold at night, all that moisture let off at night becomes light coverings of dew. I actually had a bit of an eye opening think last night. Like, in areas that are mostly dry sand, scorpions still dig deep burrows. The support comes from the fact that they're often digging into areas with plants, and the roots provide a lot of structure to the substrate that keeps it from collapsing. How do you simulate this in captivity without going full bioactive, or without using clay? I was thinking maybe incorporating excelsior wood into the substrate might give it more structure and would allow more stable burrows. Then I was also thinking about juvenile Hadrurus, apparently in the wild they tend to burrow into cactus roots, which again provide more humidity. I've seen people try to keep them on false bottom set ups and wet only the bottom layer, letting the moisture seep upwards, but from my understanding this also causes issues because sitting on moist substrate leads to mycosis. So how do you simulate moist roots in captivity? Well excelsior wood is more porous than the substrate would be, so you could maybe leave it sticking out somewhere and moisten it, and let it draw water through the wood through capillary action. I haven't tried any of this out yet, but I plan on testing it soon. First would be to see if it makes for more stable burrowing in dry substrate in captivity.

Sorry for the long side tangent, to get to your actual question younger instars do need more moisture than adults. I've found that using a really fine mister (like a hair mister from a salon) provides a fine layer of dew on the substrate that young scorplings can drink from, but will evaporate quickly and won't pose any risk of drowning. Too much condensation is deadly, as little scorplings cannot break water tension if they get stuck against the side of their enclosure. I've heard some people simply soak the substrate at one corner, I don't know if it was ever conclusively proven that they can absorb water from their environment though or if maybe they're simply drinking the water that sticks between the grains of sand. For adults I mist a corner (letting it condense on the sides) and occasionally provide a water dish to drink out of. From personal experience they usually wont drink the condensation from the corner, but if I notice them drinking the water droplets I'll provide a water dish and they'll usually drink for a good while from it. This is another one of those not enough information/personal preference things. Scorpions are incredibly resistant to dehydration. Also, wet substrate can cause mycosis. Theoretically scorpions can get all their moisture from their prey. But, their burrows and microclimates they seek out appear to be more humid and contain more moisture than surrounding areas in the desert, and especially with younger scorpions desiccation can occur. If they have deep burrows, do they not need external moisture sources at all? If they only make scrapes, are they more at risk for moisture loss? Is their health provably better when given water?

There's a lot to be said about trying to emulate what is "most natural" for them, but this is also a tricky subject when it comes to care of arthropods. I don't think longevity is the only indicator of health, and obviously it's not enough to just say "well it's eating so it's fine", but captive care is a compromise just in, how it is by nature. And with animals that are so hard for us to really understand like scorpions, I don't know where the bar of welfare should be. You could easily argue that the best way to provide moisture and humidity is to only keep them in large bioactive enclosures since burrowing in soils with a live biome and roots is what is most natural for them. This is a problem I've been trying to chip away at, how to provide the best care I can in the most reasonable way. Maybe excelsior wood mixed into the substrate gives it the structure it needs to maintain burrows, and the wood absorbs moisture to make it comfortably humid that lets trickier species like Hadrurus molt successfully. Maybe it does nothing, or is complete overkill and they're fine with just a scrape and an occasional misting. I wish there was a better metric for health and "welfare" with these animals, with what I've done I can say that I haven't had any molt issues with younger instars of Paravaejovis spinigerus, Paravaejovis puritanus, Diplocentrus whitei or Diplocentrus cozumel with a scrape and mistings. I can't attest to Smeringurus, as I've only kept adults, and I haven't kept any through enough of their life to see them molt from 4-6/7i, all the ones I have had either been adults or 2i babies from broods I've had and sold. I would definitely need more experience raising them from juveniles into adulthood to be more sure what works best.

Long post and probably not entirely what you were expecting but I've been ruminating on this a lot today.

 

[gzophia]

Wish I had more info on Smeringurus mesaensis, I've only kept adults. I want to breed them, but my pairings haven't taken so far, so maybe one of my WC females will drop a brood and I can investigate this further. As far as little Vaejovis and Diplocentrus, my personal take is they seek out much more humid microclimates than their adult counterparts. I have some tin foil hat theories about scorpions and moisture, I think burrows are more humid than the surrounding areas, and also deserts have a lot more moisture tucked away than people expect. I mean, just look at pictures of the Mojave and Arizona deserts, there's usually way more plant life around than people expect. Burrowing in plant roots or on plants gives more humidity than open sand, plants are drawing up water from deep in the ground and through transpiration are giving off small amounts of moisture. Deserts also get pretty cold at night, all that moisture let off at night becomes light coverings of dew. I actually had a bit of an eye opening think last night. Like, in areas that are mostly dry sand, scorpions still dig deep burrows. The support comes from the fact that they're often digging into areas with plants, and the roots provide a lot of structure to the substrate that keeps it from collapsing. How do you simulate this in captivity without going full bioactive, or without using clay? I was thinking maybe incorporating excelsior wood into the substrate might give it more structure and would allow more stable burrows. Then I was also thinking about juvenile Hadrurus, apparently in the wild they tend to burrow into cactus roots, which again provide more humidity. I've seen people try to keep them on false bottom set ups and wet only the bottom layer, letting the moisture seep upwards, but from my understanding this also causes issues because sitting on moist substrate leads to mycosis. So how do you simulate moist roots in captivity? Well excelsior wood is more porous than the substrate would be, so you could maybe leave it sticking out somewhere and moisten it, and let it draw water through the wood through capillary action. I haven't tried any of this out yet, but I plan on testing it soon. First would be to see if it makes for more stable burrowing in dry substrate in captivity.

Sorry for the long side tangent, to get to your actual question younger instars do need more moisture than adults. I've found that using a really fine mister (like a hair mister from a salon) provides a fine layer of dew on the substrate that young scorplings can drink from, but will evaporate quickly and won't pose any risk of drowning. Too much condensation is deadly, as little scorplings cannot break water tension if they get stuck against the side of their enclosure. I've heard some people simply soak the substrate at one corner, I don't know if it was ever conclusively proven that they can absorb water from their environment though or if maybe they're simply drinking the water that sticks between the grains of sand. For adults I mist a corner (letting it condense on the sides) and occasionally provide a water dish to drink out of. From personal experience they usually wont drink the condensation from the corner, but if I notice them drinking the water droplets I'll provide a water dish and they'll usually drink for a good while from it. This is another one of those not enough information/personal preference things. Scorpions are incredibly resistant to dehydration. Also, wet substrate can cause mycosis. Theoretically scorpions can get all their moisture from their prey. But, their burrows and microclimates they seek out appear to be more humid and contain more moisture than surrounding areas in the desert, and especially with younger scorpions desiccation can occur. If they have deep burrows, do they not need external moisture sources at all? If they only make scrapes, are they more at risk for moisture loss? Is their health provably better when given water?

There's a lot to be said about trying to emulate what is "most natural" for them, but this is also a tricky subject when it comes to care of arthropods. I don't think longevity is the only indicator of health, and obviously it's not enough to just say "well it's eating so it's fine", but captive care is a compromise just in, how it is by nature. And with animals that are so hard for us to really understand like scorpions, I don't know where the bar of welfare should be. You could easily argue that the best way to provide moisture and humidity is to only keep them in large bioactive enclosures since burrowing in soils with a live biome and roots is what is most natural for them. This is a problem I've been trying to chip away at, how to provide the best care I can in the most reasonable way. Maybe excelsior wood mixed into the substrate gives it the structure it needs to maintain burrows, and the wood absorbs moisture to make it comfortably humid that lets trickier species like Hadrurus molt successfully. Maybe it does nothing, or is complete overkill and they're fine with just a scrape and an occasional misting. I wish there was a better metric for health and "welfare" with these animals, with what I've done I can say that I haven't had any molt issues with younger instars of Paravaejovis spinigerus, Paravaejovis puritanus, Diplocentrus whitei or Diplocentrus cozumel with a scrape and mistings. I can't attest to Smeringurus, as I've only kept adults, and I haven't kept any through enough of their life to see them molt from 4-6/7i, all the ones I have had either been adults or 2i babies from broods I've had and sold. I would definitely need more experience raising them from juveniles into adulthood to be more sure what works best.

Long post and probably not entirely what you were expecting but I've been ruminating on this a lot today.

No worries; this is just what I needed! The additional tangents/info also provide very interesting food for thought. I only recently got into more arid species, so I don't know much, but I have been thinking about the ecological aspects of these animals' natural history too. Needless to say that it creates quite a paradox in captivity!

There are so many questions that this whole subject raises; I feel like the subterranean workings of desert environments are so poorly studied. But for now, I think I'll stick with mistings for my P. confusus and will probably hold off the S. mesaensis (again) until I get more experienced. Thank you for the fantastic scorpion advice as always!

 

[Tbone192]

Just a blind shot, but what about using a water dish? One that is sized appropriately so that drowning is not a risk, of course. Could provide the scorp with moisture and raise humidity a bit. Definitely more of a quick fix solution though.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

Pour a little water in a corner or mist an innerwall without saturating the substrate. Either way be sure the enclosure is well ventilated.

 

[gzophia]

Just a blind shot, but what about using a water dish? One that is sized appropriately so that drowning is not a risk, of course. Could provide the scorp with moisture and raise humidity a bit. Definitely more of a quick fix solution though.

Yeah, I thought about that, but honestly it's hard to find dishes small enough for very small scorplings.

A great idea for bigger ones though; I have one in each of my larger specimens' enclosures and it works well

Pour a little water in a corner or mist an innerwall without saturating the substrate. Either way be sure the enclosure is well ventilated.

Thank you, your advice is always appreciated. And yes, I certainly cannot forget ventilation.

 

[Joey Spijkers]

Yeah, I thought about that, but honestly it's hard to find dishes small enough for very small scorplings.

The lids of sling cups, filled with coarse sand/fine gravel to prevent drowning. Works well.
For the absolute smallest scorplings a few drops of water are already enough to hydrate them, no need for a dish.

 

[HOITrance]

Yeah, I thought about that, but honestly it's hard to find dishes small enough for very small scorplings

Maybe a tattoo ink cup with a pebble in it. Or use a small eye dropper or pipette to direct a drop or two of water where you need it.

interested in these species as well.

 

[gzophia]

The lids of sling cups, filled with coarse sand/fine gravel to prevent drowning. Works well.
For the absolute smallest scorplings a few drops of water are already enough to hydrate them, no need for a dish.

Oh interesting, I thought gravel/sand in dishes was bad but I'm glad to hear it works well for small ones.

Maybe a tattoo ink cup with a pebble in it. Or use a small eye dropper or pipette to direct a drop or two of water where you need it.

interested in these species as well.

Wow, never knew those cups existed, they are tiny! Great idea-- thank you!

 

[HOITrance]

Wow, never knew those cups existed, they are tiny! Great idea-- thank you!

Yep! Pretty cheap too. I bought a package of 500 for I think $10.

 

[gzophia]

Yep! Pretty cheap too. I bought a package of 500 for I think $10.

Nice, I'll have to consider those small dish options soon-- I have a couple of gravid female scorpions who look like they might give birth any time.

 

[Tbone192]

I am definitely getting ahead of myself, but if you ever want to exchange slings, I may make a trip to the States with Paruroctonus boreus slings and juvies. Might be a while though, none of the females I acquired are mature yet.

 

[gzophia]

I am definitely getting ahead of myself, but if you ever want to exchange slings, I may make a trip to the States with Paruroctonus boreus slings and juvies. Might be a while though, none of the females I acquired are mature yet.

No worries, that sounds great to me! I've always been interested in Paruroctonus boreus, so let me know how it goes-- so cool how it's the most northerly scorpion species. I'll probably be old enough to plan out that kind of thing by the time you have your first broods, so keep me updated!

On my hand, I have two gravid Uroctonus mordax (one more will probably be gravid soon) and one gravid Paruroctonus silvestrii. I also aim to try breeding Paravaejovis confusus soon, hence the creation of this post. Hopefully I can sex my single specimen and find a mate for it.

 

[HOITrance]

I have two gravid Uroctonus mordax

I really want this species but haven’t found them for sale recently.

I've always been interested in Paruroctonus boreus, so let me know how it goes-- so cool how it's the most northerly scorpion species.

I just looked this up and holy crap I didn’t know this! I just saw some for sale, I can’t remember where, and thought it was similar to parabuthis so didn’t pay much attention to it lol.

 

[gzophia]

I really want this species but haven’t found them for sale recently.

Yeah, I think they have limited availability, and are mainly sold in the western US. And even then, they are all wild caught, which is sad. I personally believe that U. mordax is the absolute best beginner scorpion species; they are super hardy and easy to keep. They are pretty much resistant to cold and mycosis due to the nature of their habitat (redwoods) and are very timid-- most prefer to ball up and play dead. And even then, they have very mild venom, less than a bee sting I think. Super cute.
That's why I'm trying to breed them; more people need to keep these little guys. I am so fortunate that they are the most common wild scorpion where I live! From my experience, they can be shy and sometimes a bit boring, but still can do funny things.

I just looked this up and holy crap I didn’t know this! I just saw some for sale, I can’t remember where, and thought it was similar to parabuthis so didn’t pay much attention to it lol.

Haha understandable; it's a very interesting species that I would love to own one day. That far up north is crazy.

 

[HOITrance]

That's why I'm trying to breed them; more people need to keep these little guys.

Let me know when you do!

 

[gzophia]

Let me know when you do!

I sure will!

 

[MorbidArachnid]

ALRIGHT EXCELSIOR EXPERIMENT UPDATE! So far, a success!




I've only just put her in here but she already got super deep in there! The excelsior honestly holds the hide in place so she isn't just unburying it anymore. I'll have to see if it holds up as she burrows into it though.




The Paruroctonus luteolus got super deep in there too, so far it seems promising.

 

[gzophia]

ALRIGHT EXCELSIOR EXPERIMENT UPDATE! So far, a success!

View attachment 472405
View attachment 472406

I've only just put her in here but she already got super deep in there! The excelsior honestly holds the hide in place so she isn't just unburying it anymore. I'll have to see if it holds up as she burrows into it though.


View attachment 472407
View attachment 472408
The Paruroctonus luteolus got super deep in there too, so far it seems promising.

Wow, phenomenal execution of an ingenious concept and design! Keep us updated; this is amazing.

 

[HOITrance]

ALRIGHT EXCELSIOR EXPERIMENT UPDATE! So far, a success!

View attachment 472405
View attachment 472406

I've only just put her in here but she already got super deep in there! The excelsior honestly holds the hide in place so she isn't just unburying it anymore. I'll have to see if it holds up as she burrows into it though.


View attachment 472407
View attachment 472408
The Paruroctonus luteolus got super deep in there too, so far it seems promising.

That is ingenious imo! Def keep us updated!