Crossbreeding poll

Cross breeding

  • It is ethical to crossbreed

    Votes: 18 16.8%
  • It is unethical to crossbreed

    Votes: 36 33.6%
  • It is ok to distribute the offspring

    Votes: 9 8.4%
  • It is not ok to distribute the offspring for any reason

    Votes: 43 40.2%
  • We should black list the person that does crossbreed

    Votes: 21 19.6%
  • We should allow the open market to decide

    Votes: 26 24.3%

  • Total voters
    107

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
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Crossbreeding poll Select more then just one.

This is poll to see the reaction of crossbreeding in this hobby.

The question is simple.

Is crossbreeding ethical?

Is it ethical to sale or distribute the offspring for any reason?

And if you think that the it is unethical? The what do you think the hobby should do about cross breeding in general?

Ban it and black list, just refuse to do business with them or support anyone that does, those that do it or distribute the offspring, because they my try to pass the offspring off as a species when they can not sale them as a hybrid?

Let the nature of the open market determine the out come of the offspring, if people choose to buy then that will dictate the future of hybrids?
 
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Pulk

Arachnoprince
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Nothing wrong with trying to cross-breed them, but everything wrong with giving /selling the offspring to someone you don't trust 100%. Right?
 

david goldsboro

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Nothing wrong with trying to cross-breed them, but everything wrong with giving /selling the offspring to someone you don't trust 100%. Right?
there is every thing wrong with cross breeding any type of T any hybrids should be destroyed and they people that do it should be ban from the hobby with all there animals took away from them just look at the mess avics and brachys are in and the p smithi , people only hybidize them just for 1 thing only to make money this is wrong and should never even croos a T keepers mind ? we have enough T's in the hobby to keep every body happy apart from the greedy people these are my veiws on the subject i just hope people see sense and stop cross breeding them
 

Pulk

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This "greedy" cross-breeder has a mature female of Species A and a mature male of species B. He or she successfully breeds them, and now has a mature female of sp. A, a mature male of sp. B, and some number of unsexed sp. A / sp. B hybrid slings. Let's say they keep doing filthy cross-breeding within Avicularia or Brachypelma, and they have a mess and have no idea what's what. As long as this person doesn't "release" any of these individuals into the hobby, where is the problem?
 

dukegarda

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Why must we meddle with everything? Let nature take it's course. Obviously there would be some naturl crossbreeding done in the wild to an extent. But forcing two Tarantulas that would NEVER meet in the wild to mate and produce viable offspring is completely wrong IMO.

Mess around with the gene pool enough, it'll be so contminated no amount of filtering will clean it up. And if one of these specimens got into the wild...
 

AubZ

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Hmmm... I wonder what will happen if I try bredding a poodle with a pitbull???
If you wanna screw around do it by yourself, don't get those mix breeds in the hobby. It's hard enough as it is. If anyone hears of cross breeding, please post on every single possible forum you can find and alert everyone.
 

AubZ

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This "greedy" cross-breeder has a mature female of Species A and a mature male of species B. He or she successfully breeds them, and now has a mature female of sp. A, a mature male of sp. B, and some number of unsexed sp. A / sp. B hybrid slings. Let's say they keep doing filthy cross-breeding within Avicularia or Brachypelma, and they have a mess and have no idea what's what. As long as this person doesn't "release" any of these individuals into the hobby, where is the problem?
The problem is he/she may not want all the offspring so either let them go in the wild(big prob) or give them away. Eventually it will end up in the hobby. If they decide to kill all the unwanted slings, then what was the point? Plus that is a BIG BIG NO NO here. We all love T's and don't want to see them being killed due to 'experimentation'.

Just my 2c
 

lychas

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i myself have 4 hybrid spiderlings, they will never be bred from or sold on. If people do breed them they should either keep the offspring or distribute them to close friends who will never sell on or breed with them
 

AfterTheAsylum

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I don't crossbreed, but I don't mind it. I think that it is not unethical, and I think it is okay to distribute babies as long as the consumer knows. Think about how many people buy tarantulas. How many of them actually try to breed? I think most consumers in the hobby don't get into it like us. They won't try to breed, and they won't have more than 2 or 3 Ts. These are the people that go into a pet store and say, "Hey, I think I want a tarantula'" but they never get "into" it. I think the key is to name them differently. Let's say you hypothetically cross a P. nigricolor and a P. antinous; the name of the spider should be Antinous nigricolor. This would make people (second hand hobbyists) aware that it is a crossbreed.

Remeber the first Liger (cross of Tiger and Lion)? It is far larger than both the tiger and lion, stronger, faster, and absolutely beautiful. It has the lion color, but had light tiger stripes in a shade f tan just slightly lighter than the dominant lion color.
 

Derek W.

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I had to go with blacklisting the person. There is no valid reason for a hobbyist to be crossbreeding. If you are going to breed you should just focus on the already existing species. In the event that a species is extinct in the wild, we won't need a bunch of different crossbreeds being confused with the actual species.
 

kitty_b

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i don't know where i'd answer on this poll. the issue of ethics feels a bit over-reactive, because it is already very common practice to cross-breed non-arachnid species (cows, sheep, goats, horses, cats, dogs, etc). if this was a poll of the general public, i would expect more people to be upset about cross-breeding of vertebrates as opposed to invertebrates. (this is not ANY form of insult against invertebrates... i have nearly 200 and love them all dearly.)

do i believe that someone should cross-breed two closely-related species and then sell them under the false pretense that they are pure-bred? no. should they sell them off under the claim that they are a new species? no. should they be able to sell/give away hybrid offspring with proper identification (ie, "these are the product of x-species female and y-species male")? i don't see the immediate harm in that. yes, there is the chance that the receiver can then lie and resell or release the animal under false pretenses.... but don't people already do that???

i think the real potential problem that may arise from cross-breeding is the lessening of proper, species-specific breeding. YES, if everyone suddenly decided it was more interesting or profitable to cross-breed, then the availability of genetically pure individuals would drastically decline, and that WOULD be a serious issue for the hobby. however, given the current opinion concerning this practice, i don't believe this is an issue at the moment.

i understand the importance of genetic purity and integrity. i appreciate the conservation of species and diversification of bloodlines. (heck, my field of interest in endangered species preservation through captive breeding/assisted reproduction technologies!!!)

i personally haven't cross-bred, but if i did, it would be restricted to closely-related species, and between species that may naturally cross-breed in the wild. my main concern with cross-breeding is the health of the offpsring (lifespan, reproductive capacity, etc) and the proper identification of their pedigree.
 

cacoseraph

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i don't know where i'd answer on this poll [...]
good answer!


i personally think similar to kitty in a lot of respects.

further, i think that hybriding done in the spirit of science stands to tell us interesting things that could bear fruit even out of hybriding application. i would do much to further understanding of things.
 

Talkenlate04

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My vote is why not........ However none of the offspring should leave the residence of the person that bred them. I agree it could muddy the waters more then they already are. It's crossed my mind more then once, all the what if's, but even if I do something like that, they are never going anywhere, they will never be sold. Their will never be any chance they get to any part of the hobby. Odds are I won’t even tell hardly anyone. It will just be to satisfy my curiosity and try and learn something new. In the spirit of science like Caco said. There are things that can be learned if it's all done in a responsible manner.
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
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good answer!


i personally think similar to kitty in a lot of respects.

further, i think that hybriding done in the spirit of science stands to tell us interesting things that could bear fruit even out of hybriding application. i would do much to further understanding of things.
And this is why I have not voted in this poll either. But if you do a search I have spoken my piece on this. Hybrids are not the end of the world but are a bad step for anyone that would think it is just cool to do.
there needs to be ethical responsibility here, including keeping, preserved, a male and female from the hybrid sack, for later study. DNA should be keep to sort out future problems.

There needs to be steps taken, so that people can make sure that they protect the species we have. But I well say that anyone that has breed hybrids before has not keep a male and female of the sack, has not keep the male to female ratio, has not measured the avg weight, size, or even map the color variation. They have breed them, then destroyed what they have done or given them away.

This hobby rotates around money. If a person does not what to spend money on more then a few individual then inbreed is ok. If a person breed to species and get a hybrids they will try to sale them. If they can not sale the hybrid then they will claim it as a new species/color form and then try to sale it. It is no different then when we see "blank" sp "blue 2 malayasia/supercolor form" or "blank" sp "flaming red with a martini in one hand".

And that is what I see as a problem with hybrids. A person in "fill in the blank country" decides to cross two species of the same genus. He then can not sale them at for what they are so he sales them to an importer that lables them "blank" sp "big flaming hockey puck chewing giant"

Then it becomes clear that if he sale, gammastola rosea for 4 dollars he make s very little money, but if he sale gammastola hybrid he can call it, G. sp "big yellow lucy in the sky with diamonds" he gets alot of money. This is the problem. Then we as consumers see "big" "yellow" and "diamonds" proclaim it the holy grail and buy buy buy.

hybrids can go very wrong.
 

Drachenjager

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i dont think its ethical at least not right now. The problem as i see it is that many genera are a mess to begin with. We dont know enough about them to be able to identify a species and it stay that species or even in that genera permanatly. What with bugs that go between genera over time and , well just look at the Tarantulas in the usa , we have bugs that we dont even know if they are part of the hentzi complex or what. Dave Mollendorf told me the other day that even the wichata red rump and carlsbad green are hentzi complex bugs...if they are just a color morph is it actually cross breeding to breed a green to a red rump? To me it would be a mistake to do that , but even then not cross bred.
So I think untill we have the ability to tell what kind of tarantula we are even talking about we should not muck around wiht thier DNA. I do suspect that there is a lot of hybridization in the wild, but we cant control that. We can however control OUR actions and i have yet to see any reason to hybridize tarantulas, they are so varied and wonderful as they are that there is one that everyone can love.

Speaking of identification, another thing i learned form Dave is that what is refered to as A. moderatum is not nessaraly A. moderatum lol. He said "There is the Rio Grande Gold, what is called A. moderatum , but isnt really..." SO even there what the heck is being sold, A. moderatum or Rio Grande golds? I have to talk with him more about this as i plan to attempt to breed them...

Anax also has a "complex" there are several that are in that ...most are not in the pet trade yet, but could be some day. Do we really want to muddy the waters with hybrids untill we know what nature has out there ? I think NOT!
whoops if I think , therefore I am , and think not do i cease to exist?
 

Pulk

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dukegarda said:
Why must we meddle with everything? Let nature take it's course. Obviously there would be some naturl crossbreeding done in the wild to an extent. But forcing two Tarantulas that would NEVER meet in the wild to mate and produce viable offspring is completely wrong IMO.
why?

Aubz said:
If you wanna screw around do it by yourself, don't get those mix breeds in the hobby. It's hard enough as it is. If anyone hears of cross breeding, please post on every single possible forum you can find and alert everyone.
ok, but only if it goes beyond screwing around by yourself, right, Aubz?

AfterTheAsylum said:
Remeber the first Liger (cross of Tiger and Lion)? It is far larger than both the tiger and lion, stronger, faster, and absolutely beautiful. It has the lion color, but had light tiger stripes in a shade f tan just slightly lighter than the dominant lion color.
it also has a huge head.

myspideratemyhw said:
I had to go with blacklisting the person. There is no valid reason for a hobbyist to be crossbreeding. If you are going to breed you should just focus on the already existing species. In the event that a species is extinct in the wild, we won't need a bunch of different crossbreeds being confused with the actual species.
how is being interested in the results not a valid reason to be crossbreeding?
and again, the problem is only when the crossbreeds start confusing things. no inherent problems with crossbreeding even if the species is extinct in the wild.

kitty_b said:
the issue of ethics feels a bit over-reactive, because it is already very common practice to cross-breed non-arachnid species (cows, sheep, goats, horses, cats, dogs, etc). if this was a poll of the general public, i would expect more people to be upset about cross-breeding of vertebrates as opposed to invertebrates.

should they be able to sell/give away hybrid offspring with proper identification (ie, "these are the product of x-species female and y-species male")? i don't see the immediate harm in that. yes, there is the chance that the receiver can then lie and resell or release the animal under false pretenses.... but don't people already do that???
the reason people are less bothered about vertebrate crossbreeding is the species are better organized and understood.
another thing to be careful about with giving someone else your hybrid is they have to care enough not to -accidentally- confuse it with one of the parent species.

cacoseraph said:
i think that hybriding done in the spirit of science stands to tell us interesting things that could bear fruit even out of hybriding application. i would do much to further understanding of things.
i agree... and i think it doesn't even have to be rigorous, data-collecting science. just the "exploring things" aspect of science.

talkenlate04 said:
Odds are I won’t even tell hardly anyone.
how come?

TheDarkFinder said:
Hybrids are not the end of the world but are a bad step for anyone that would think it is just cool to do.
there needs to be ethical responsibility here, including keeping, preserved, a male and female from the hybrid sack, for later study. DNA should be keep to sort out future problems.

...They have breed them, then destroyed what they have done or given them away.

This hobby rotates around money. If a person does not what to spend money on more then a few individual then inbreed is ok.

...Then it becomes clear that if he sale, gammastola rosea for 4 dollars he make s very little money, but if he sale gammastola hybrid he can call it, G. sp "big yellow lucy in the sky with diamonds" he gets alot of money. This is the problem. Then we as consumers see "big" "yellow" and "diamonds" proclaim it the holy grail and buy buy buy.

hybrids can go very wrong.
why does a cross-breeder need to keep all those records? i agree that's necessary if the goal is to increase -scientific- knowledge, but what if they "think it is just cool to do"?
i agree that destroying live slings is unethical, and haphazardly giving them away is also a problem. but neither of those is a problem with crossbreeding in the first place.
what do you mean by "If a person does not what to spend money on more then a few individual then inbreed is ok."?
i like your hybrid common names. {D
so maybe... "-selling- hybrids can go very wrong"

Drachenjager said:
they are so varied and wonderful as they are that there is one that everyone can love.
this doesn't make sense to me. wanting/liking/loving is as subjective as you can get. imagine a theraphosa-size, grammostola-calmness/cheapness, poecilotheria-vibrance hybrid. some people would go to the effort to crossbreed to get that... how is that not their choice?

don't think i know what i'm talking about... i've only had an A avic, a G rosea, and an A eutylenum, and i killed the first one. :D
 

xgrafcorex

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i voted against crossbreeding. i'd rather try and maintain the species as they are without messing around with them. if everyone or even just a lot of people got into crossbreeding..who knows how long a pure form of a species would last. there is already enough diversity amongst the existing species..no need to make more.
 

KaineSoulblade

Arachnoknight
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May 24, 2007
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I like all the T's as they are now.

What gets me however is the violent responses stating that hybrids should be "squished" and "destroyed". What the heck is wrong with you?
I assume everyone here loves T's. If a hybrid somehow came into your posession I would like to think you would care for it as the rest, and not kill it.

People have been cross breeding cats and dogs for a long time, I don't see any angry mobs saying they would destroy them.

Lastly, if two different spiders are able to mate and do successfully bare healthy offspring then you can't really say its unnatural because in the wild what's to stop a T from barking down the wrong burrow and mating with a close relative, since often they live in the same territories. Rare as it could be I'm sure it happens. It could attribute to some of the different color phases.
 

P. Novak

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As long as the babies aren't sold out to careless people, or better yet not sold at all and the "breeder" clearly identifies them as a hybrid, then I don't see a problem with it.
 
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