cross breeding

afs rock

Arachnosquire
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
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83
i am not going to attempt this but can scorpions mate with other species and have scorplings with breeds that are realated :?
 

AzJohn

Arachnoking
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Dec 25, 2007
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I immagine it can be done. I'd not encourage it however.
 

scorpionmom

Arachnobaron
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Dec 5, 2010
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349
I think I have heard that it can be done. John--why would you not encourage it? I don't think it would be a good thing either because it would kind of detract from the hobby and be detrimental...what do think?
 

LD50Qc

Arachnopeon
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
36
I think that it could be possible if the two species are sharing enough genetic materials. If the two species are "genetically" too far, it won't works.

But if it's possible, the spermatophore has to be compatible (size and shape) with the genitalia operculum of the female. And, of course, cannibalism could be a big problem during the "mating".


By the way, I don't think that it's a good idea to try it because of the loss of purity of the species. If the hybrid specimens look alike the two parents (and can't be clearly identify as an hybrid) it can be a problem if the are sold and bred.


But just to be sure, you were talking about an hybrid or a cross ?

Hybrid = two species ex: Pandinus imperator X Pandinus cavimanus

Cross = two subspecies ex: Hottentotta jayakari jayakari X Hottentotta jayakari salei
 
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AzJohn

Arachnoking
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I think I have heard that it can be done. John--why would you not encourage it? I don't think it would be a good thing either because it would kind of detract from the hobby and be detrimental...what do think?

My problem with hybridizing species is that it could make it difficult to determine the species of a given scorpion. Take Centruroides vittatus and Centruroides sculpturatus, the natural color forms of the two species can be very similar depending on the location. To a casual hobbyist they could be indistinguishable. If they were hybridized it could make things harder to figure out. The same can be said about many hottentotta species and several others. I'm not a zealot, check the tarantula forums, but as a breeder I want to know exactly what I have and what I'm breeding. When I sale animals I want them to be top quality, not hybrids. I'd hate to start selling animals with muddy bloodlines.

I can see why it would be done out of curiosity, but I'd hate to see the babies hit the market.
 

gromgrom

Arachnoprince
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Do some research. The difference between scorpions/T's and dogs, for example, is that all dogs are the same specie,. this isn't true with scorpions, and when you mix a P Imperator with a Cavimanius, you dont have either anymore. You have a genetically weaker hybrid.

Please look up exactly why this is bad. All hobbyists should know why it is bad, besides weaker genes, selling an animal that isnt what its advertised as, etc,
 

AzJohn

Arachnoking
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What do you folks think of this? I just purchased four Central American C gracilis. (I'm skeptical but that's what I was told.) I got them in the truck and started thinking "what if there all female". I almost positive one is a male, but they are instars, and I'm basing this purely on experience. If they are all females should I throw in a Fl Male? Besides the difference in location there is a difference in venom strength and reported cases of parthenogenesis in Cuban gracilis populations. At this point they are still the same species.

Just curious what you guys think. I'm not afraid of scientific answers either.
 

Michiel

Arachnoking
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May 22, 2006
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Hi John,

A short answer.

1. If you introduce a FL male, they will breed (I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't) if they prove to belong to C.gracilis;
2. Parthenogenesis in scorpions can be triggered by a combination of environmental and nutritional factors and by certain bacteria. I am not sure what makes the Cuban population of C.gracilis parthenogenetic.

A recent publication of the life history of Tityus neblina by Lourenco, described an interesting experimental study. Males and females of this species where mated and studied, kept under optimum temps are feeding from 7-10 days. Some mature virgin females where isolated, kept under room temp and fed only every 21 days. These females produced parthenogenetically. Those broods where typically smaller, most probably and energy saving adaptation.

Would be interesting to know what kind of toxicity the venom of the hybrid would have.
Anyway, some species will hybridize others don't. This depens i.e. on how closely related there are and their distribution patterns. I have seen examples of Androctonus and Parabuthus species.
For the hobby circuit, hybrids are unwanted, the species need to be kept what they are to ensure their future in the hobby, but this depends on peoples preferences. If you like a Androctonus australis-mauretanicus hybrid....
 

AzJohn

Arachnoking
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Thanks Michiel,
It would be interesting to try and find out more about parthenogenesis. With four scorpions I'm afraid I wont have a chance for a while. Plus, breeding and captive care is much more my strong point. I might try a few females at different temps and feeding conditions. I also think some things should be left to people who can document things better than I can, maybe a real scientist. I know reptile hobbyest can get very upset if you cross locals. I'll try and keep them as two populations, mainly to make sure the CA gracilils stay out of the hands of beginers, but also to keep the blood lines purer.

John
 

John Bokma

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
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May 31, 2005
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486
Does the venom strength not depend on outside factors? (Like temperature/diet?). Does anyone know if this has been researched?
 

Michiel

Arachnoking
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I really don't know, maybe someone else has knowledge about this.....
 

Nomadinexile

Arachnoking
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I was wondering the same thing John. If they are the same genetically, they share the same venom strength at one point in history I would assume. Could it be something like Poison Dart Frogs, where after being put into captivity the venom (poison in the frogs), slowly weakens? I know it goes away completely in the frogs, and wouldn't in scorpions, but...

Have you seen or heard anything about this in Long term captive populations in Europe Michiel? Has anyone "tested" venom strength in these? I would be curious.

@John,
I don't know what I would do. Of course if I ever sold any, they would be properly labeled. I may try with one female. But we should be able to get more C. American C. gracilis from an import shouldn't we?
 

H. laoticus

Arachnoprince
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1,017
I was wondering the same thing John. If they are the same genetically, they share the same venom strength at one point in history I would assume. Could it be something like Poison Dart Frogs, where after being put into captivity the venom (poison in the frogs), slowly weakens? I know it goes away completely in the frogs, and wouldn't in scorpions, but...

Have you seen or heard anything about this in Long term captive populations in Europe Michiel? Has anyone "tested" venom strength in these? I would be curious.

@John,
I don't know what I would do. Of course if I ever sold any, they would be properly labeled. I may try with one female. But we should be able to get more C. American C. gracilis from an import shouldn't we?
Hey Nomad, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the poison from dart frogs taken from their diet? I remember seeing a doc about their prey items eating on certain plants that produce that toxin and when you take that into account, it explains why these poison dart frogs lack their poisonous quality in captivity.
 

Michiel

Arachnoking
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Hi Nomad,

no I don't have contact with toxicologists so I wouldn't know. This has also to do with my own interest, I am more interested in the health effects and symptoms than the toxic compounds and structures. In the case of Dendrobatids, like H.laoticus says, it is a matter of diet. Because they don't eat the ants (and other stuff) that they eat in their natural surroundings, the strenght of the venom fades away and gets less stronger each generation...
 

AzJohn

Arachnoking
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I was wondering the same thing John. If they are the same genetically, they share the same venom strength at one point in history I would assume. Could it be something like Poison Dart Frogs, where after being put into captivity the venom (poison in the frogs), slowly weakens? I know it goes away completely in the frogs, and wouldn't in scorpions, but...

Have you seen or heard anything about this in Long term captive populations in Europe Michiel? Has anyone "tested" venom strength in these? I would be curious.

@John,
I don't know what I would do. Of course if I ever sold any, they would be properly labeled. I may try with one female. But we should be able to get more C. American C. gracilis from an import shouldn't we?
I think the venom strength could be a result of several and propably is. This species is so spread out fror FL, Cuba, to CA. I wouldn't be surprised if the stronger venom is the result of a more demanding environement, and as such would be mainly genetic is nature. Each population seems to be diverging. CA has sronger venom, Cuba has reported parthenogenisis, it would be neet to study the scorpions and figure out were the species originated. If we knew which population is oldest we could study the genetic shifts that are causeing these changes.

I'm not sure about importing anything. We need to take care of what we have. So many countries are closing to exports.

JOhn
 

Athelas

Arachnopeon
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
48
I have a couple of hypotheses about both cross-species breeding and toxicity.

Speciation is a fuzzy concept even among scientists who study it. Biologically, if two organisms cannot interbreed they are different species (even if taxonomically we place them in the same genus). But some organisms that are ecologically or morphologically different have been placed into different species even though they can interbreed. If they can interbreed, they may produce unviable offspring or viable but sterile offspring. Or .. they can produce vigorous offspring. It depends on the particular genomes and how well they work together.

If selection has been favoring individuals who do NOT cross-breed, there my be reproductive isolating mechanisms that will make it difficult to get them to mate, even if they are still genomically compatable. For example, females of one species may prefer male signals only of their own species (these could be pheromones or behaviors). Or as an earlier poster mentioned, there could be differences in the spermatophores or female reproductive structures that work lock-and-key within a species. Or it could be at the level of the proteins sperm/egg use to recognize and bind.

Regarding the venom and toxicity, from what I can tell from the literature, scorpions synthesize their peptide toxins from genes, whereas poison dart frogs seem to sequester toxins already synthesized by their prey (i.e. the frogs don't have the genes for the toxins). Therefore it seems natural selection could act on genetic variation in toxicity in scorpions. In theory, different populations of even the same species might be more/less toxic. So mating different variations or closely related species may well influence toxicity of venom. In theory! (I couldn't find any papers that actually tested this hypothesis)

Scott

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