crickets fight

[Stylopidae]

Pain or injury for them in the wild =weakness, so they try to hide it as much as possible, but that doesnt mean they dont feel it.

OK, guys...this subject has been covered to death.

For all of you who are trying to say that invertebrates can feel pain, I have two words for you:




PLEASE


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD


JUST


DROP IT!

I have read every single concievable arguement that you can post and it is all completely disproven by an avalanche of scientiffic research performed by people who are far more qualified than most* of the people on these boards.(Including myself)

An invertebrate's nervous system is not near complex enough to feel pain. Done. End of arguement. Do not argue further.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=40470&highlight=bugs+pain

Of course you can always just google a PETA page to disprove the above so please, feel free. That's why I don't normally participate in these debates (except in this fashion).

Read through this or any other identical thread by using the search function.

This debate will only devolve into a circular philosophical debate.

*Code Monkey is the only one who springs to mind, with the possible exceptions of Volker VonWirth, Martin Huber, Michael Jacobpi, or Steve Nunn.

 

[Stylopidae]

Pain or injury for them in the wild =weakness, so they try to hide it as much as possible, but that doesnt mean they dont feel it.

So just to indulge you, who exactly are they trying to hide the injury from?

I'll just assume that lower level invertebrates are self aware (which they are most definitely not...again, scientiffic research)

If you're missing a limb, that's an obvious one and I've yet to see a cricket fashion a prosthesis.

It's virtually impossible to hide a missing gigantic sensory organ (such as a head).

One day, I came home to find a praying mantis breeding attempt gone horribly wrong. The female had eaten the last half of the mantid, leaving only the upper half of the thorax and the head.

The half mantis was happily munching on a cricket. Now if any given high school football player were cut in half I doubt he'd try that hard to hide it from a cheerleader.

Besides, his sex organs aren't even in existance. He had no more reasons to hide his injuries. He couldn't reproduce and thus his reason for living was gone, unless he wants to write a book and run for political office.

This is what is called anthropomorphism, applying human attributes to something you hold dear.

Humans imagine their emotions, their facial expressions and their personalities in their pets and will look for any evidence in observation while overlooking fundamental facts.

 

[bugmankeith]

Wow really no pain, not even lobsters either like that article said? So if they bleed heavily from having all their legs cut off and are slowly dying, they dont know it? That sure is strange.

I guess if you really think about it this sounds true, so I believe now after reading that, but I still wont go squishing and cutting invertebrates up.

I saw a show where a person could feel no pain, so if they dipped their hand in scorching water they felt nothing, but their arm looked horrible, it can be dangerous because you dont know how bad of an injury you got, and you can die without ever feeling pain.

 

[Stylopidae]

Oh, they probably have a good idea that they're missing body parts and know what body parts they're missing but they just don't interpret it the same way you and I would.

If they can just shed limbs at will it can't bother them too much, especially if they can regenerate identical ones with subsequent moults.

 

[bugmankeith]

What I meant by "trying to hide that their in pain" was animals in the wild dont show if their in pain very often(yes I know nothing about insects), because if they are weak/injured they usually dont last long because a predator will see they are injured and go after them. It was just a general comment, but now I know I cant associate that with insects anymore. Although an insect that is badly injured is easy prey.

Now do you know what I meant?

 

[Arachno Kid]

Ahem, on the sport of pitting things together to fight you better quite watching most sports its not a matter of MAKING them fight its a NATURAL instinct to make sure that nothing comes on its territory which it will think its territory is the container. Lets say Jerusalem crickets they are very aggressive and will kill most things that are in its tunnels and vicinity. Now lets talk about stag beatles ( these are fun) they do it to mate. I suppose field crickets might do that to. NOW onto Scorps,T's,Centis,Spiders ETC. we all love to watch them kill things and eat them so give up on the Peta stuff XD. Really inverts feel no pain, no need to worry.

 

[ShadowBlade]

JUST


DROP IT!

AMEN brother!!:clap: :clap:

-Sean

 

[-Sarah-]

Nah they don't.
The fact that a mantis will continue to eat if its abdomen is torn off, or a cricket clean its feet and live for hours while being chewed on by a scorp, or a cockroach lives without a head. Questions the fact that they have similar responses to injury.

I wasn't comparing them to humans or mammals in the way that our nervous system and pain receptors are equally receptive to sensation; they are obviously not. I'm just saying that even though cricket fighting isn't a major problem, I'm not one to initiate fighting for entertainment or pleasure because in my opinion, cricket fighting is no big deal. Torturing animals that can actually feel a significant amount of pain is a completely different story. That being said, it won't stop me from feeding another mouse to my A. seemanni, but like I said before, it's there as an obvious source of food (and a good source at that!) oh, by the way... Useless trivia: cockroaches can live for up to a week without their head - and also reproduce and lay eggs during that time

(Yes yes, I know. Everyone knows that. Subject dropped )

-Sarah

 

[ShadowBlade]

Yeah, my argument is not with your opinion, as you say you don't mind the feeding and stuff. But with this post-

they can feel pain just as we can... whether they're the size of a dust mite or as large as a horse. Just my opinion

I was clarifying that things like dust mites, do not experience pain. Invertebrates probably have entirely different responses to injury. They are made to be capable of losing appendages to stay alive. 'Pain' would only hinder them.

-Sean

 

[musihuto]

heh. you're awesome. :clap:

cheers!
- munis

OK, guys...this subject has been covered to death.

I have read every single concievable arguement that you can post and it is all completely disproven by an avalanche of scientiffic research performed by people who are far more qualified than most* of the people on these boards.(Including myself)

An invertebrate's nervous system is not near complex enough to feel pain. Done. End of arguement. Do not argue further.

*Code Monkey is the only one who springs to mind, with the possible exceptions of Volker VonWirth, Martin Huber, Michael Jacobpi, or Steve Nunn.

 

[Vermis]

I have a feeling (no pun intended) that others besides the 'insects feel pain' camp should "DROP IT". They aren't the only ones overreacting, or failing to drop it.

 

[ShadowBlade]

or failing to drop it.

Continuing a friendly discussion about invertebrates and pain is fine.
But bringing up, 'Crix feel pain' to smash someone about crik fighting is what should stop.

 

[-Sarah-]

Yeah, my argument is not with your opinion, as you say you don't mind the feeding and stuff. But with this post-



I was clarifying that things like dust mites, do not experience pain. Invertebrates probably have entirely different responses to injury. They are made to be capable of losing appendages to stay alive. 'Pain' would only hinder them.

-Sean

Coming from a scientific stand point, they most likely wouldn't feel much of anything - I suppose I ought to clarify what I meant by that statement. Every living thing must be able to feel something. As for invertebrates, they do not necessarily feel 'pain', but I'm sure they do feel something in the least. Pain was definitely not the best way to describe it, I'll agree - but perhaps discomfort would have been preferable to pain. Pain does not necessarily hinder a creature; depending on the animal, it only makes it more aggressive to fight for its survival.

-Sarah

 

[thisgal]

HEY! How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:

 

[Ewok]

HEY! How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:

Your right we should! I especially feel bad when fire ant colonies get stomped out by m-80 firecrackers :liar:

 

[ShadowBlade]

HEY! How about yelling at all the people in another thread because they're talking about various (rather violent) ways to exterminate ant colonies! What's the deal? :? :wall:

HEY!! I've got a better idea! How about you go live where there are BILLIONS of Fire ants combing across the South killing BILLIONS of other species of insects, and totally ruining land! Turning your front lawn into a never ending battleground of a dozen different colonies. Which can eventually assimilate to the other colonies, join, and just march across your front porch! They are not even native!

Now, lets not hi-jack this thread. If I find the thread you refer to, I'll join in.

 

[Taceas]

I'm no expert, but those two Field Crickets look rather female with a very obvious ovipositor on their back end. So why the fight?

Secondly, they do have a nasty bite. I picked one up as a kid and it bit the palm of my hand as I was carrying it. Hurt like the dickens.

Lastly, they're crickets, who really cares if they fight and why? If people really cared about the things that truly mattered this world would be a lot better off. No one seems to give a whipstitch about the foreign and invasive Ash Borers working their way around the Midwest. No one seems to care about finding a real method to controlling Japanese Beetles that destroy thousands of dollars of plants. But yet, we cry out when crickets fight.

 

[dtknow]

Nope they are males. The ovipositor you see is the hindwings. Look at the forewings which are not smooth and do not have parallel running veins also.

I find it odd they are not chirping during this bout. I have two pretty equally matched house crickets in a container with a bunch of females and they chirp their fools heads off when they get close to one another. They never actually lock jaws and fight for anymore than a second though.

Personally, I see this as part of the interesting behavior of crickets.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Pain does not necessarily hinder a creature; depending on the animal, it only makes it more aggressive to fight for its survival.

Well, invertebrates, (atleast smaller ones we are referring to) are not made to fight for their survival. They don't posess the capabilities to. They are made to run, and produce mass numbers. Sure, crix can kick and bite, but that doesn't do anything to larger animals.
It would seem God made such small invertebrates to be able to lose appendages, and still escape and reproduce. Why should they feel discomfort?
The fact of how little their brain 'remembers', makes us wonder what they would feel.
They'd forget why they were 'discomforted' two seconds after it happened.

They feel a leg lost, and continue on, probably forgetting it. As Cheshire said, a mantis will have its abdomen ripped off, it knows that- maybe. But then it eats. If it felt the 'discomfort' of missing half its body, why would it eat?

-Sean

dtknow is right, those are males.

 

[Timmy]

I'm interested! Which cricket won?