Coydog debate

AzJohn

Arachnoking
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How much "detritus" do those coyotes eat?

And how quickly would that stuff pile up if they did NOT eat?

---------- Post added 12-05-2013 at 12:03 AM ----------

Urban coyotes may be more valuable than people realize.
The "detritus" that they make away with may leave many places in better condition than they would have been in.

Not all of the "detritus" is exactly that,though.
Some people do leave food out for coyotes.

Some people are happier when animals visit them.

That brightens their day.

This may be worth more than we think.
When I was growing up I lived in a town that had some older people that only lived in Arizona during the winter months. They fed the coyotes. The coyotes lost their fear of people and became a real problem. People had their dogs eaten in front them. People who feed these things need to understand that they are creating a ton of problems for their neighbors.
 

The Snark

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How much "detritus" do those coyotes eat?

And how quickly would that stuff pile up if they did NOT eat?

---------- Post added 12-05-2013 at 12:03 AM ----------

Urban coyotes may be more valuable than people realize.
The "detritus" that they make away with may leave many places in better condition than they would have been in.

Not all of the "detritus" is exactly that,though.
Some people do leave food out for coyotes.

Some people are happier when animals visit them.

That brightens their day.

This may be worth more than we think.
Just to inject reality into this, looking at things entirely objectively and dispassionately. Coyotes are in flux, evolution in progress. They certainly are less destructive to the environment than their average urban dwelling bipedal 'victims'. As the saying goes, Aus Relatif. Everything is relative. PETA is less damaging to the environment than those who bash them but otherwise do nothing to protect and sustain things. Humans are certainly more damaging than all the other animals in the world combined.
Do coyotes cause harm on their foraging campaigns? What perspective do you view it from? Far too many animals are damned and condemned because they cause inconvenience to humans in one way or another, or through some perceived damage according to the limited scope of a survey or study that fails to take evolution in it's entirety into account.
 

Bigboy

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The same logic applies to feral pigs. Could we be completely honest for a moment? They are hunted and shot because there is a strong culture in America of shooting animals. Yes, a culture. And within that culture the need for self justification always crops up. As with hunting coydogs, the justification is often cheap rationalizing, but overall, that is the general rule with the trigger pullers. Look at some of the justifications. "We have to kill those deer! There are too many!" Even when the 'too many' study was mostly financed by cattle ranchers. And over and over and over. Be honest. Many Americans are infatuated with bang sticks. They will go to fantastic lengths to point them at living animals. Coydogs aren't alone. Just one of several convenient targets.
Snark, I do not follow your logic as it applies to feral pigs.

Feral dogs are hunted because they depredate livestock and kill native wildlife. Coydogs are hunted because since before America was a nation, fur traders from the colonies, first nations people France, Spain and Portugal all saw value in coyote pelts.

Feral pigs are ecologically DEVASTATING and that is one of the reasons they are hunted, there is no corollary between the hunting of fur bearers and the hunting of feral pigs unless you are talking feral dogs or feral cats.

And there is a large hunting culture, which is dying by the way, in the US. Hunters are a valuable asset to Conservation in my country. Aside from hunters being more conservation oriented than your average city slicker, the taxs on outdoors equipment from clothing to firearms goes into filling the outrageously small budget the USFWS has to begin with.

Your mention of deer only further reduces the strength of your above arguement as it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the ecology of deer and the ramifications in a predatorless America.

I am an American
I am a hunter
I am a conservationist
I am a professional ecologist

You sound to me as though you disapprove of hunting. I suggest you go hunting a few times yourself. See what it is like to become part of the land, to connect with nature and harvest your own food instead of shopping for something that grew up behind bars. You may actually find that hunters have a bit more between their ears and in their chests than some infatuation with "bang sticks" as you call them.

I like reading most of your posts, but this one was inflammatory at best, insulting of an entire culture at worst.
 

The Snark

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Snark, I do not follow your logic as it applies to feral pigs.

Feral dogs are hunted because they depredate livestock and kill native wildlife. Coydogs are hunted because since before America was a nation, fur traders from the colonies, first nations people France, Spain and Portugal all saw value in coyote pelts.

Feral pigs are ecologically DEVASTATING and that is one of the reasons they are hunted, there is no corollary between the hunting of fur bearers and the hunting of feral pigs unless you are talking feral dogs or feral cats.

And there is a large hunting culture, which is dying by the way, in the US. Hunters are a valuable asset to Conservation in my country. Aside from hunters being more conservation oriented than your average city slicker, the taxs on outdoors equipment from clothing to firearms goes into filling the outrageously small budget the USFWS has to begin with.

Your mention of deer only further reduces the strength of your above arguement as it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the ecology of deer and the ramifications in a predatorless America.

I am an American
I am a hunter
I am a conservationist
I am a professional ecologist

You sound to me as though you disapprove of hunting. I suggest you go hunting a few times yourself. See what it is like to become part of the land, to connect with nature and harvest your own food instead of shopping for something that grew up behind bars. You may actually find that hunters have a bit more between their ears and in their chests than some infatuation with "bang sticks" as you call them.

I like reading most of your posts, but this one was inflammatory at best, insulting of an entire culture at worst.
I am a native American who strongly endorses the traditional Lakota attitudes towards hunting
I've been a hunter for 50 years. For food, because it was fun and legal, for protecting of myself and other people, and in a number of overpopulation control programs on county, state and US governmental levels.
I am a conservationist, but also a hard cold facts realist and a scientist.
I have been involved in numerous ecological projects and operations inclusive of erosion control, habitat restoration and maintenance, and public education.

Hunting, thinning, has become a necessity because of extreme irresponsibility among humans. It is a stop gap measure. A band aid on a symptom. It continues because, as much of human actions, it is far easier than addressing the real problem of a severely unbalanced ecosystem. However, correcting the ecosystem is very costly, time consuming, and requires people to start acting in a responsible, nature respecting manner.
If my post is inflammatory, yours is accusative without knowing all the facts.
 
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The Snark

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My response was based on your previous posts in this thread. I make no apology for it.
Then ask instead of making wild assumptions.

There was no necessity for hunting in America or Australia until the European invasion. Nature always found some sort of balance. Creating a problem then claiming somethings like hunting is necessary in correcting the symptoms of the problem is vile. Not addressing the origin issue as one continues to exacerbate the problem is the most base, narcissist, self idolizing, self pandering pile of poo.
 
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Shrike

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The coyote of today in many locales is of questionable value in the ecosystem as it lives off the largesse of the detritus left by humans. Almost all if not all the packs that live in the San Gabriel mountains have the urban areas of humans as their primary foraging grounds, as one example.
It pains me to call most urban and suburban environments "ecosystems," at least in their present state. In terms of biodiversity these landscapes are pale imitations of what preceded their development by humans, in large part due to our propensity for gardening with non-native plant species. As you pointed out, these biologically diminished "ecosystems" are filled with numerous species that thrive off of our largesse--sparrows, coyotes, pigeons, rats, squirrels, and the like. Many of these animals are beautiful and interesting in their own right, but their abundance is symptomatic of a tremendous loss in local biodiversity. This is one reason that I'm a huge proponent of gardening with native species. I believe it's one of the single most important things we must do in order to preserve our biological heritage in the face of continued population growth and development.
 

The Snark

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It pains me to call most urban and suburban environments "ecosystems," at least in their present state. In terms of biodiversity these landscapes are pale imitations of what preceded their development by humans, in large part due to our propensity for gardening with non-native plant species. As you pointed out, these biologically diminished "ecosystems" are filled with numerous species that thrive off of our largesse--sparrows, coyotes, pigeons, rats, squirrels, and the like. Many of these animals are beautiful and interesting in their own right, but their abundance is symptomatic of a tremendous loss in local biodiversity. This is one reason that I'm a huge proponent of gardening with native species. I believe it's one of the single most important things we must do in order to preserve our biological heritage in the face of continued population growth and development.
That is extremely well put. That is also the attitude that has become the norm in restoration and erosion control in the southern California area. Use the native plants, don't import, whenever possible. On the down side, speaking from personal experience, I would much rather plant Descanso Rockrose than poison oak. One must take the bitter with the sweet sometimes.

Ranch Santa Ana botanical gardens is at the heart of this and well worth a visit.
 

zonbonzovi

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Oh, I thought this was entitled Corndog Debate. My internal dialogue went something like, "Hmmm...mustard or curried ketchup." "Can the joy of a corn dog really be debated?" "There are meatless options now." "What brilliance! Butcher shop leftovers and cornmeal!"

Sorry for the interruption. I may need glasses. Carry on...
 

Smokehound714

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You see a buttload of coydogs in tucson, especially around Pima..

They're definitely a serious problem. Nothing worse than a coyote the size of a rottweiler..
 
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