Could certain old world tarantulas kill a small dog?

[Ramen]

Came up in conversation with my friend recently, was curious if certain old worlds had the potential to kill a small dog if they got bit. Species we discussed were Stromatopelma calceatum, Monocentropus balfouri, Poecilotheria metallica. He has a SMALL 5-pound dog and does not keep old worlds at all due to having such a small pooch in the event of an "escaped" OW.

 

[fcat]

Selenocosmia are believed to be lethal to dogs, the Australian variety...I think...

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Selenocosmia are believed to be lethal to dogs, the Australian variety...I think...

Isbister, G. K., Seymour, J. E., Gray, M. R., & Raven, R. J. (2003). Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines. Toxicon, 41(4), 519-524

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=d8816cf0554ea2764440803a8076bea9cfd55c21

 

[cold blood]

Yes, Australian species in particular are known to be deadly to dogs....and it's a quick death from what I understand.

 

[fcat]

Isbister, G. K., Seymour, J. E., Gray, M. R., & Raven, R. J. (2003). Bites by spiders of the family Theraphosidae in humans and canines. Toxicon, 41(4), 519-524

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=d8816cf0554ea2764440803a8076bea9cfd55c21

Happy holidays to you too!!! Thank you!

 

[viper69]

Yes, I just wish they could kill neighbors

 

[fcat]

Yes, I just wish they could kill neighbors

There were a few instances where both the dog and the human were bit in that study...they certainly seem angry enough to get the job done

 

[sparticus]

Came up in conversation with my friend recently, was curious if certain old worlds had the potential to kill a small dog if they got bit. Species we discussed were Stromatopelma calceatum, Monocentropus balfouri, Poecilotheria metallica. He has a SMALL 5-pound dog and does not keep old worlds at all due to having such a small pooch in the event of an "escaped" OW.

Other than the Australian species there is insufficient data available, but it would not be at all surprising if venom that can cause systemic effects in 150-250lb humans could kill a small dog or cat. I don't keep old worlds for the same reason. Never had an escape, still not gonna intentionally bring something into the house that could possibly kill my pup if something went wrong.

 

[fcat]

Other than the Australian species there is insufficient data available, but it would not be at all surprising if venom that can cause systemic effects in 150-250lb humans could kill a small dog or cat. I don't keep old worlds for the same reason. Never had an escape, still not gonna intentionally bring something into the house that could possibly kill my pup if something went wrong.

I have cats, so a bit of a different angle...every time I bring Ts home I am intentionally bringing home something they will kill if they get access to it.

They can jump to just about any surface in my house, can knock things over, are smart enough to open doors they can definitely open lids... Little terrorists running around...an escaped T here is a double threat and will not end well... so I have to be hypervigilant. I am going to make mistakes.

I simply won't keep anything from Australia because I live in Arizona. A tropical species may not last long on the lam, but I would never knowingly bring something into my house that could escape, survive, thrive, and walk next door to my neighbors to kill their dogs. They are the goodest girls.

I suppose it's messed up to say that my old worlds won't last long if they escape, but it's true. It's a consideration made by others, including agencies that deem species invasive, not trying to be mean...that said, even a new world escaping could be detrimental to your local ecosystem...by that measure we could look at all types of pets, roaches easily come to mind...are they not dangerous even if they don't kill dogs? Someone here knocked out his native cricket population just by releasing his extra feeders.

I assume anything that can kill a dog can kill a cat. I also assume respiratory distress from urticating hairs would be a long road to recovery.

 

[sparticus]

I have cats, so a bit of a different angle...every time I bring Ts home I am intentionally bringing home something they will kill if they get access to it.

They can jump to just about any surface in my house, can knock things over, are smart enough to open doors they can definitely open lids... Little terrorists running around...an escaped T here is a double threat and will not end well... so I have to be hypervigilant. I am going to make mistakes.

I simply won't keep anything from Australia because I live in Arizona. A tropical species may not last long on the lam, but I would never knowingly bring something into my house that could escape, survive, thrive, and walk next door to my neighbors to kill their dogs. They are the goodest girls.

I suppose it's messed up to say that my old worlds won't last long if they escape, but it's true. It's a consideration made by others, including agencies that deem species invasive, not trying to be mean...that said, even a new world escaping could be detrimental to your local ecosystem...by that measure we could look at all types of pets, roaches easily come to mind...are they not dangerous even if they don't kill dogs? Someone here knocked out his native cricket population just by releasing his extra feeders.

I assume anything that can kill a dog can kill a cat. I also assume respiratory distress from urticating hairs would be a long road to recovery.

You're assuming your cats are good killers, I know mine and I absolutely wouldn't bet their lives on it. If it came down to it, I do value the life of my dog (and cats) over the spiders. If there was a fire I would absolutely take the dogs/cats out first. I don't have anything that would survive the local ecosystem, roaches included, except my cats who are altered. And I'm not overly concerned with urticating hairs, they are an irritant but not deadly and can be contained pretty easily. Everything in life has risks, its valuable to understand and consider the risks you're willing to take. I wish more people would spend time thinking about it, honestly. Again, I've never had an incident of any kind, still never wrong to err on the side of caution.

 

[Andrew Clayton]

So here is my theory on it. Selenocosmia species have lethal venom to dogs because of the wild dogs in Australia, so it would only make sense that there venom adjusted to affect dogs. There is no reason to suggest that other old worlds would be the same apart from African species since they have wild dogs too, even at that though, I would assume it's only the fossorial or terrestrial species that have such venom. Things like pokies I would say do not have venom that could kill a dog as there would be no dogs climbing trees to eat spiders, although as they are old world it would be significantly more serious than a bite from a new world with urticating hairs. The size of the dog and the size of the spider will also play part in this, like chances of a Tibetan Mastiff dying from a sling or juvie bite probs isn't going to happen but a chihuahua getting bit by an 8 inch Selenocosmia Crassipes it's got no chance.

In reality though there is not enough data or studies done to prove or disprove. Even the new world species with no urticating hairs like P Cambridgei are thought to have more potent venom so could they be deadly to dogs too?

I have 4 dogs but they don't get in the house they have there heated kennels and all my Inverts are in the house so never mix but I can guarantee that if I had a T out roaming anywhere my dogs would want to play with it they would not try and harm it but the T doesn't know that so I can guarantee the dogs would get bitten, my 2 cats on the other hand are straight up murderers they will actively chase and squash house spiders so I wouldn't like the T's chances there.

 

[fcat]

You're assuming your cats are good killers, I know mine and I absolutely wouldn't bet their lives on it. If it came down to it, I do value the life of my dog (and cats) over the spiders. If there was a fire I would absolutely take the dogs/cats out first. I don't have anything that would survive the local ecosystem, roaches included, except my cats who are altered. And I'm not overly concerned with urticating hairs, they are an irritant but not deadly and can be contained pretty easily. Everything in life has risks, its valuable to understand and consider the risks you're willing to take. I wish more people would spend time thinking about it, honestly. Again, I've never had an incident of any kind, still never wrong to err on the side of caution.

I'm saying this as someone who stopped counting after spending 5 digits to save my cat's life on multiple occasions...you may have missed my point.

I have to go the extra mile to keep my cats safe and Ts safe because they are arguably smarter and have greater physical capabilities than dogs... I have a whole room dedicated to my Ts that they are not allowed in. I drop one new world exuvia and it's going to be complete misery for them. Respiratory distress, permanent blindness, PAIN AND DISCOMFORT... I have read some sad stories but one stands out...I interpreted the description as rectal prolapse but the author described it as another animal coming out of its anus...and they didn't realize what was wrong until the [MAMMAL]lol had been symptomatic for days...plus nausea and vomiting...They ate the exuvia... While not lethal I can only begin to imagine...I have personally itched for weeks because the lid wafted hairs at me. I'm sorry, but because I value my cats so much I consider that just as much of a risk...

And if not here then reddit... A full grown A geniculata (all hail) walking right up to a dog's nose...the T had not only escaped but made it's way to the living room. It's an actual video.

Kudos in your diligence. I have a molt soaking that I'm trying to keep perfect for species identification and I bet after my 24 hour shift today the water will have evaporated leaving a dry exuvia...like I said I'm going to make mistakes. That's why I have a T room.

 

[Andrew Clayton]

I asked an AI what T's were deadly to dogs, and after it told me none and I corrected it it's seems to have found this.

 

[sparticus]

I'm not misunderstanding. I have made an educated decision based on risk/enjoyment assessment and stand by my decision. You made a decision for your household, it's not the same one I made but that's your choice and I respect your right to do what is best for you and your situation. I'm glad you've put a lot of thought into it. Just because it would make me uncomfortable doesn't make it the wrong choice for you. I was just explaining the rationale behind my decision.

 

[viper69]

There were a few instances where both the dog and the human were bit in that study...they certainly seem angry enough to get the job done

If only……

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

So here is my theory on it. Selenocosmia species have lethal venom to dogs because of the wild dogs in Australia, so it would only make sense that there venom adjusted to affect dogs.

Then how would you explain the opposite of how the venom of male Sydney funnel webs (Atrax robustus) can be deadly to primates, but not to dogs and other mammals? And what about canines such as coyotes that inhabit the United States and share habitat with Aphonopelma species?

I assume anything that can kill a dog can kill a cat.

I wouldn't make that assumption because different species of unrelated organisms have different cell physiologies (specifically metabolic pathways/ ion channels).

 

[Andrew Clayton]

Then how would you explain the opposite of how the venom of male Sydney funnel webs (Atrax robustus) can be deadly to primates, but not to dogs and other mammals? And what about canines such as coyotes that inhabit the United States and share habitat with Aphonopelma species?

Just a theory nothing to actually prove it chances are it's an incidental effect rather than a specific adaptation.
Same with the A. Robustus as mammals and primates are not on there menu.
The Aphonopelma species I would guess is using it's urticating hairs 1st.