Copper safe for spiders?

[saminthemiddle]

I'm building a climbing "toy" for my two arboreal tarantulas out of copper wire. The ends, of course, are filed down to be smooth so that's not a problem and the wire itself is quite heavy so I'm not concerned about impalement.

What concerns me is that my Mother noted that she uses copper strips to repel snails. I know that that has to do with some electron transfer between the snails mucous and the copper strip. My question is: is copper safe for my spiders?

Anyone have any experience using copper or brass in their enclosures?

Thanks in advance!

 

[brglss]

coppers bad for lots of things most likely tarantulas to. My opinion be safe just in case.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Thanks Brglss, I did some research and Copper is in fact used as a pesticide but not in the metallic form. It's used as copper sulfate or copper arsinate.

In light of this though, I'm not going to put something that's used as a pesticide in the tank. Either I'll find some way to coat it, avoiding direct contact with the spider or I'll find a different material to construct with.

Thanks all.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Okay guys, I put some heat shrink insulation on the wire. It should be a-okay for the enclosure now.

The fittings are still brass though, but the alloy should hold the copper fast (tighter than it already would be held in pure copper form) so it should be safe. It was that or zinc which would make zinc oxide in the moist environment which I'm almost positive would be a bad thing!

 

[Nerri1029]

If you have a lot of Copper Wire.. you may want to sell it tomorrow

Metals are worth LOTS right now.

You can buy some Aluminum wire that's sturdier and have $$ left over

 

[Sevenrats]

Copper is very poisonous. They put copper in bottom paint on boats. I wouldn't put any metal in any animal enclosure.

 

[cacoseraph]

copper can be poisonous... but i believe it is also a component of arthropod hemolymph

i know for sure it is in either squids or some other c'pod as part of their oxygen grabbing molecules, analgous to our hemoglobin

cyanoglobin, i think it is called

 

[deez8legz]

Yes copper is an element in tarantula hemolymph. I still don't think I'd put the copper wire, insulated or not, in there with them. I agree aluminum would be cheaper and less of a threat. Can you post pics of your idea? I'm curious as to what you had in mind.

 

[Sevenrats]

There is a need for a lot of the heavy metals in nutrition but in extremely small quantities. Iron for instance will kill you dead if you ingest to much of it but it needed for red blood cell production.

 

[saminthemiddle]

I'm not worried now that the spiders aren't in direct contact with the metal. After all, what do you think is in the wire in most silk plants?

As for what I did: Sorry I can't post pics as my camera isn't able to sync with the computer ATM.

I took a length of insulated copper wire and made a little loop on one end that fits over a machine screw. I then took a pair of pliers and twisted the rest into a spiral.

The bolt goes though the plastic enclosure lid/bottom and though the loop of wire. Then I put a nut on it to hold it in place. Ta Da! Spider jungle gym!

Using a different kind of metal sounds like a good idea though. Aluminum isn't the best because it doesn't take well to being bent (it gets brittle and snaps). I think what I'm going to do is to use steel and dip it in resin to rust proof it in the future.

As for now the spiders have already thoroughly webbed up their climbing toys so I don't want to disturb them, at least not before they have had some food. They just got out of what I suspect to be a DHL refrigerator :evil: and are very stressed because of it. I don't want to add to that till they are feeling a bit better.

The reason I chose copper is that it is very ductile, is super easy to work with, doesn't corrode, and in it's purely metallic state is very safe in terms of leaking copper pollutants into the environment. To be honest I'm now more worried about the insulation than I am about the copper itself!

As for price, it was 25c/foot which isn't too bad when last year it was 75c/foot for a smaller gauge I needed for another project.

 

[Sevenrats]

Dude, you asked a question, got several responses telling you not to do it, then explain how you're doing it anyway. Not one person told you that they thought copper was a good idea.

Whatever.

 

[saminthemiddle]

Because, Sevenrats, I:

1) have the copper in insulation where it can't come in contact with the animals. Which I'm sure is perfectly safe.

2) You can't just go down to the hardware store and buy the safer wires. It's copper in insulation, copper w/o insulation, or steel (which rusts and can be poisonous).

3) I put the wire in before people started expressing reservations about the insulated wire.

4) I'm not going to take them out now because the spiders are extremely stressed right now from just being refrigerated in a shipping container and thrust into a new home as it is. I'm not *about* to stress them out more (which I'm sure would harm them) by tearing up their webs and moving them into a different enclosure to protect them from a hypothetical danger that I'm pretty confident isn't a problem anyway. I'll move them to an coated aluminum container when they have had a chance to eat something.

5) My spiders needed me to do something *RIGHT NOW,* I posted the question about bare wire, got a response that it's a bad idea. Took a measure to correct the problem, because I needed to do something *RIGHT NOW* and using an insulated wire was, and still is, the best option available to me *RIGHT NOW*.

I'm *sure* the insulation sufficiently isolates the animal from a substance that may, or may not, be dangerous to it making it safe, I'm *sure* the brass fixtures are perfectly safe as the zinc in the brass alloys with the copper preventing it from being free.

I'll be creating a better enclosure soon once I'm able to. *In the mean time* using this enclosure is my best option.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that either I don't care about my animals or I'm not doing the absolute best that I can to care for them properly!

 

[jen650s]

I bet aluminum bonsai wire would be just about perfect for what you are doing. It is readily available at good garden centers, and is way cheaper than copper, get the heavy stuff.

You are right that it could only be bent once or it stress fractures, but if you thought about how you wanted it to start with it shouldn't be too hard to get it in one go. By bent I mean a hard bend with a kink. Softer bends, curves if you will, can be re-done several times (I wasn't the best at learning how to wire a bonsai :wall: )

It sounds like a neat idea, I'd love to see a picture of what you have in mind.

Cheers

 

[saminthemiddle]

Thank you Jen, with your help of telling me where I can get the aluminum I'll be able to convert them over as soon as tomorrow night. I didn't know they used aluminum in gardening. I tried hardware and electrical. Didn't even think about checking in gardening.

 

[saminthemiddle]

I'm a bit concerned about the Aluminum Oxide, however as all metallic aluminum that is exposed to oxygen *very* quickly forms a lair for this stuff. In the oxide form it should be able to rub off the aluminum and get absorbed by the spider.

I'll hard anodize the wire for the final setup but that requires Sulfuric Acid which you can't just buy at the local mom and pop.

Add some dye and you can make it all colorful.

 

[jen650s]

the stuff i have for bonsai is coated with something that looks like powdercoat, but can't be because it doesn't flake or chip even with repeated bending. Bare aluminum would be at least as bad as bare copper, but either coated should work O.K. but aluminum is a lot cheaper.

 

[saminthemiddle]

That stuff that you're describing as "powder coat" is the layer of aluminum oxide crystals. Apparently they anodized it before it left the factory because normally aluminum oxide crystals don't get big enough for them to be "powdery" without help.

By the way, I'm finding aluminum oxide listed in pesticide safety databases. It doesn't seem to be used commercially (it seems to suck as a pesticide). I'm not sure if it's listed because it's a byproduct of aluminum phosphate use or if it's listed because it is toxic in and of itself.

Anodized aluminum (aluminum with a forced aluminum oxide crystal layer) should be safe in the same way brass is safe. The compound itself might not be the best thing for you but it should be in such a form that it can't get in biological systems. AKA, outside the spider, not in it and it's fine.

 

[billopelma]

Don't know about it's affect on insects/spiders but I do know from experience with saltwater reef tanks that copper is *highly* toxic in even trace amounts to most marine invertebrates.
If you are concerned with containing/isolating it in your T enclosure, I wouldn't expose it to any moisture unless you can encase it and hermetically seal the ends.

Bill

 

[saminthemiddle]

Yes, that is what I have done with the copper.

It's kind of a moot point now though as I am replacing it with aluminum bonsai wiring this evening as soon as I get home from class.

I'm going to risk the Aluminum Oxide as it should be quite safe bonded tightly to the metallic aluminum. And, once I get my hands on some sulfuric acid I'll be able to anodize it thus making the bond even tighter while adding festive colors though die!

By the way, everyone: My spiders LOVE the wire climbing toys. The spiral is especially good for the Psalmopoeus cambridgi as it is the perfect shape for her funnel web.

When I remake the climb toys for the Avicularia avicularia I'm going to use a different shape, however. Zigzagging up and down in a tight cylinder (don't worry, I'll post pics soon, likely in a HOWTO in its own thread).

 

[Nerri1029]

If the copper is covered. Then I say leave it alone.

If there is no practical vector/method for the Copper to get inside the T then I'd say you are safe.

Case:

Silver is a heavy metal, and can be toxic, and has interesting effects when exposed.
but some people eat off of silver utinsels all the time and I've yet to see/hear of anyone exhibiting symptoms from eating with real 'silver'ware.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9439