Communal Tarantula Project

[Bill S]

i noticed no one posted about the cage matience with a trillion spiders to keep an eye on maybe a large commuinty of isopods (roly polys)

A cage full of Heterothele villosella is basically one large web with spiders peeking out from scattered holes in the web. If you are anal about cage maintenance, something like this will tip you over the edge. Spiders will dash out and grab a cricket, hauling it into the depths of the web, never to be seen again. I have not introduced isopods into the colony, and only remove those crickets that I can easily reach. Eventually I'll probably disassemble the cage and let them start fresh - but for now I just acknowledge that they are doing what they've done for eons before people noticed them, and it seems to work out well for them.

 

[Anastasia]

Bill,

I tried H villosella, kept 6 in 6"round x10" high tub, end up with one mature male 8 months later, they didn't do well communally for me at all.
I actually felt bad that they ate each other.

 

[Bill S]

Sorry to hear that Anastasia. I put several adults together for my first colony, and have periodically been removing "overflow" since then to start a couple other colonies and to give some away to other people. I've got a couple groups living in deli cups at the moment - they've been there for a few months and doing well - and another group in a KK and yet another in a big terrarium. The original colony is in a ten gallon terrarium, and the second large terrarium is in a 29 gallon tank. I suspect that a few may get eaten once in a while, but not enough to crash the colony. But I'm waiting to see what happens when the next generation appears. That seemed to be the limit to my Holothele sp "Tachira" colonies - they lived well together until someone had babies. However, in my initial Heterothele colony I had at least three females produce babies at the same time, and all got along well.

 

[Necromion]

Bill, do you have any advice on how to setup a H. villosella colony as I'm currently looking at setting one up? As of right now I have one adult female and a sling I'm hopping is a male. I would be using sac mates to create the colony but beyond that not really sure where to begin.

 

[Bill S]

I set mine up in a ten gallon tank. Thick layer of coco fiber as a substrate. Branches/logs in a pile so as to provide plenty of hiding places. You could probably set your adult female up in something like this and let her establish her web. Then if your sling turns out to be a male, introduce him into the tank at maturity.

 

[Necromion]

Thnx, also any advice as to the best conditions for breeding?

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Yep, my H.villosella colony is teaming with individuals. Just over pack it with hiding spots, keep it humid, and supply steady food. They'll breed for you quite quickly as they can take 7-9 months to mature in my experience. I introduced dwarf tropical isopods and my cage is quite clean and the isopods are ignored.

Other species that work in larger tanks (10 gallons+) with a copious amount of hidings spots include:

Holothele incei
Holothele sp. Columbia
Heterothele gabonensis
Oligoxystre sp. Atlantic Forest Brazil

There are others I've worked with, but have only had social groups that did not reproduce and create a multi-generational colony.

 

[grayzone]

I Am keeping both in groups, same communal behavior, IMO better then any other Poecilotheria, practically 0 losses. No bulling no picking on smaller ones no aggression towards one to the other, even when food scares 0 losses.

interesting... good to know. thanks anastasia

 

[campj]

OBT's ? really? everytime I follow someone on doing those communal, they end up with only one at the end

Mine was a slow-motion disaster... and as the cherry on the cake, it was a male that lasted to the end.

 

[Hornets inverts]

I see alot of people recomending keeping them in cramped conditions, i really dont see how that would work. It may be ok for species that are naturally communal but for most species that at best just tolerate others, its a recipie for disaster. Also i dont believe in the "dont do it" advice, if your not afrad to lose a few spiders i say go for it. I'll be giving it a go with a few native T's, trapdoors and funnelwebs when i get sacs and have plenty of young to spare, if it works, great, if not, i have learnt what wont work.

 

[jayefbe]

I see alot of people recomending keeping them in cramped conditions, i really dont see how that would work. It may be ok for species that are naturally communal but for most species that at best just tolerate others, its a recipie for disaster.

If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure? The only way a communal is ever going to truly work is if the species naturally has those tendencies, and I 'think' 'cramped' conditions may reinforce them. I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all. I don't know if smaller enclosures leads to a decrease in cannibalism, the evidence is only anecdotal and has too many variables not under control, but it seems like it at least may be the case. Maybe if I get my P. regalis females to drop a sac I'll try communals of various densities to see if any relationship exists in at least this species.

When I put my OBTs together, it was about 2 and a half years ago, and done at the beginning of the OBT communal experimentation (as far as I could find). There were some so-so early results, and I felt it was a worthwhile experiment. Unfortunately, it ended the same way most people's have. Based on the little direct evidence available, I don't think OBT are suitable for communal housing, but I don't think it's not worthwhile for someone to try again in the future just for verification or further experimentation.

 

[Bill S]

If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure?................ I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all.

I'll address the second issue first. Why would you assume that having their own territories means they will not interact? There are certainly social animals that are also territorial. (Humans, for example.) I wonder how much this misconception contributes to people feeling they need to crowd their "communal" tarantulas together.

Territories can be fluid, can sometimes just be having a hide to retreat to within a greater system of hides. For example, in my Heterothele colonies there is a single large web with lots of small holes. Spiders might sometimes share holes or displace each other from a particular hole, but they definitely like having a hole to retreat to. And most of the time it's one spider per hole. If there aren't lots of individual hiding places, the colony doesn't do well.

As for idea of keeping multiple spiders together that only tolerate each other - Why not? Is a cage that houses three or four attractive tarantulas less appealing than having three or four cages housing those same tarantulas? (The answer may vary a lot between species - if the level of tolerance dictates that the group of spiders needs a 500 gallon tank, then I'd definitely opt for individual cages. If however they do perfectly well in a 20 gallon tank, I may go with the group display.)

 

[jayefbe]

I'll address the second issue first. Why would you assume that having their own territories means they will not interact? There are certainly social animals that are also territorial. (Humans, for example.) I wonder how much this misconception contributes to people feeling they need to crowd their "communal" tarantulas together.

Territories can be fluid, can sometimes just be having a hide to retreat to within a greater system of hides. For example, in my Heterothele colonies there is a single large web with lots of small holes. Spiders might sometimes share holes or displace each other from a particular hole, but they definitely like having a hole to retreat to. And most of the time it's one spider per hole. If there aren't lots of individual hiding places, the colony doesn't do well.

As for idea of keeping multiple spiders together that only tolerate each other - Why not? Is a cage that houses three or four attractive tarantulas less appealing than having three or four cages housing those same tarantulas? (The answer may vary a lot between species - if the level of tolerance dictates that the group of spiders needs a 500 gallon tank, then I'd definitely opt for individual cages. If however they do perfectly well in a 20 gallon tank, I may go with the group display.)

The decision to "crowd" the tarantulas was not based on misconception about territorial behavior. Rather, it was based on the experience of those who have kept communal Poecilotheria and OBTs before me, Talkenlate04 in particular (at least in regards to Poecilotheria). I'm not saying that just because it works for Poecilotheria that it is the ONLY way it will work and with every species. I'm saying that I don't believe it is necessarily wrong, and in some cases, may lead to greater success. Obviously, there are varying degrees of social behavior within tarantulas. Holothele incei, Pamphobeteus sp Chicken Spider, etc naturally display greater social behavior, in which case, they should be kept differently. In me experience, which I admit is limited, keeping Poecilotheria regalis in tight communal enclosures resulted in no cannibalism at all. All 5 spiders grew at the same rate (4 mature females and one mature male), and without anthropomorphising them, appeared very healthy and did not display behavior one would expect from a tarantula uncomfortable with its enclosure-mates. I also did NOT feed them heavily. There were times that they went upwards of a month without food, and still no cannibalism. I would be interested to see if the success would be maintained at different densities. The small evidence I've seen, indicates that the lower the density the greater the cannibalism in Poecilotheria, but without controlled experiments we won't know for sure. Additionally, when I say that cramped enclosures have worked, I am only saying they have worked for Poecilotheria. This method of keeping them likely won't work for other communal species, I wouldn't necessarily expect it to.

As far as keeping tarantulas together that merely tolerate each other (at best), I think would only eventually lead to cannibalism or other unwanted results. In dart frogs, there are many species that will somewhat tolerate each other (at best) for months at a time. But in nearly every instance, the numbers will eventually dwindle to a single sexual pair (which can co-habitate without problems). Granted, tarantulas are much different, but I would conjecture that without a naturally occurring social behavior that occurs at some point in the wild, a species will not be able to be kept within a single enclosure without eventual problems arising. I would love to be proven wrong, and don't think it's not worth trying, but I would expect something to occur eventually. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.

 

[Bill S]

As far as keeping tarantulas together that merely tolerate each other (at best), I think would only eventually lead to cannibalism or other unwanted results.

Wouldn't that be evidence that they DO NOT tolerate each other?

 

[Hornets inverts]

If they at best just tolerate each other, why even place them in the same enclosure? The only way a communal is ever going to truly work is if the species naturally has those tendencies, and I 'think' 'cramped' conditions may reinforce them. I don't see the reason to place multiple tarantulas in a single cage if they are simply going to maintain their own territories with no interaction at all. I don't know if smaller enclosures leads to a decrease in cannibalism, the evidence is only anecdotal and has too many variables not under control, but it seems like it at least may be the case. Maybe if I get my P. regalis females to drop a sac I'll try communals of various densities to see if any relationship exists in at least this species.

When I put my OBTs together, it was about 2 and a half years ago, and done at the beginning of the OBT communal experimentation (as far as I could find). There were some so-so early results, and I felt it was a worthwhile experiment. Unfortunately, it ended the same way most people's have. Based on the little direct evidence available, I don't think OBT are suitable for communal housing, but I don't think it's not worthwhile for someone to try again in the future just for verification or further experimentation.

My desire for attempting keeping a "colony" is not just to see the spiders all living in the one burrow system, sharing food, shelting together etc. Personally i'd be just as happy to have a large viv with a number of spiders that do their own thing and keep to them selves. The only time i see cramped conditions working are with species that are highly social and will live on top of one and other with no probs. Other species that live in close proximity to eachother but but still like their own space probably wont appreciate being forced into those conditions where they cant retreat to their own space if need be. I'm not saying it wont work period, more so that in order for it to work the species will need to be one of those ones that naturally lives on top of eachother, most species would resent those conditions IME, even species that build burrows within cm's of eachother naturally dont seem to like being forced together.