Communal Project Pictures

[Bill S]

Vinegar is basically a watered down version of acetic acid. Acetic acid occurs naturally in nature, even being produced by animals such as vinegaroons. When it enters an environment it gets broken down, and since vinegar is already diluted acetic acid

Vinegar CONTAINS acetic acid - along with a host of other chemicals. Most of those chemicals are probably harmless and will break down into other harmless chemicals. But acetic acid is not particularly harmless. The reason vinegaroons use it so effectively for defense is that it is powerfully irritating to moist membranes - and book lungs would qualify as moist membranes. While the liquid you obtain by mixing water and vinegar contains dilute acetic acid, that liquid does not aerosolize along with the acetic acid. The acetic acid that aerosolizes is pretty pure - there's just less of it than there would be if you used straight vinegar or more concentrated acetic acid solution.

I might use it to clean cages or objects that go in cages when no animals were present, but I would avoid using it in any place where there were live animals, especially in a cage where the vapors would be contained around the animal. And if I used it to clean a cage, I'd definitely wait until all acetic acid vapors had thoroughly dissipated before I place an animal in that cage.

 

[EDED]

When you open the cage the H.incei scatter and hide in the web tunnels. All I do for maintenance is wipe down the glass with vinegar and water, mist, and add carrots for the feeder bugs/detrivores that are in the tank. Every few months I have to add some extra soil. It's odd how an inch disappeares in a couple months. So far no escapes when cleaning. I may also have to add more plant clippings soon since they webbed over much of it.

what are these bugs you keep for house keeping? pill bugs?

i keep T. tomentosa but they are very small and i would need a big big colony to tackle something like your tanks lol

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Vinegar CONTAINS acetic acid - along with a host of other chemicals. Most of those chemicals are probably harmless and will break down into other harmless chemicals. But acetic acid is not particularly harmless. The reason vinegaroons use it so effectively for defense is that it is powerfully irritating to moist membranes - and book lungs would qualify as moist membranes. While the liquid you obtain by mixing water and vinegar contains dilute acetic acid, that liquid does not aerosolize along with the acetic acid. The acetic acid that aerosolizes is pretty pure - there's just less of it than there would be if you used straight vinegar or more concentrated acetic acid solution.

I might use it to clean cages or objects that go in cages when no animals were present, but I would avoid using it in any place where there were live animals, especially in a cage where the vapors would be contained around the animal. And if I used it to clean a cage, I'd definitely wait until all acetic acid vapors had thoroughly dissipated before I place an animal in that cage.

Actually white vinegar is made by oxidizing a distilled alcohol (ethanol, with grain as a source). CO2 is produced and evaporates and acetic acid is also produced. The result is a solution of about 5% acetic acid and the rest water. Once diluted by half or more in the case of my glass cleaning, the concentration would decrease to <2.5% acetic acid.

Vinegaroons produce acetic acid at a much higher amount (about 85%) making the pH level substantially higher and the resulting dissociation of base materials more harmful. For other natural sources just look at any biological system. Acetic acid is needed in the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates (coenzyme A) and is the main component of the acetyl group found in nearly every organism. The acetyl group is also an integral component of DNA transcription. As the concentration of acetic acid decreases so do the potentially harmful effects, and in many cases becoming useful, tolerated, and even integral.

As for the dissociation of the acetic acid in my tanks, a large majority of it bonds to the calcium and other metals on the glass from hard water and various other sources to form a salt (neutralizing the pH effects). Insubstantial amounts of hydrogen are released in this process. The remaining acetic acid (acid is only an acid while dissolved in solution) and the salt on the glass is wiped away with the cloth I use to dry right after a quick wipe down.

But honestly. According to the LD50 it takes 3310 mg/kg to kill a rat through oral dose. That's an extremely high amount. And yes it does not correspond with what may be toxic to a tarantula, but I will continue using it on all my tanks to clean them until my tarantulas, snakes, scorpions, centipedes, tailless whip scorpions, snails, worms, millipedes and everything else I have shows signs of distress from that cause. I have been using it for over 10 years in large (6’x2’x2’) to miniscule (500 mL) vivariums with no visible ill effects. All those species are still alive and well and in some tanks there are multiple generations.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

what are these bugs you keep for house keeping? pill bugs?

i keep T. tomentosa but they are very small and i would need a big big colony to tackle something like your tanks lol

And the detrivores I use are sow bugs (another isopod), 2 species of worm (including red wigglers), tiny millipedes, spring tails, 2 species of tiny land snail, and predatory mites (to keep other mites at bay). So you only need a small colony of each if you have the other species aiding in the maintenance of the tank.

 

[Bill S]

Actually white vinegar is made by oxidizing a distilled alcohol (ethanol, with grain as a source). CO2 is produced and evaporates and acetic acid is also produced. The result is a solution of about 5% acetic acid and the rest water.

Yup, alcohols oxidize into acids, and those in turn oxidize into aldehydes. Formanol becomes formic acid becomes formaldehyde. Ethanol becomes ethanoic acid (aka acetic acid) becomes ethanal (an aldehyde).

As the concentration of acetic acid decreases so do the potentially harmful effects, and in many cases becoming useful, tolerated, and even integral.

Yes, and acceptable food under certain circumstances. But we choose how and when to ingest it. Spraying it into a cage may or may not fit within that realm of choice or appreciation.

But honestly. According to the LD50 it takes 3310 mg/kg to kill a rat through oral dose. That's an extremely high amount.

I took it for granted that you would be well below an LD50. It's not the lethality I'd worry about, but just the possibility of irritating/stressing the animals in the cages. You may very well have worked out the proper dilutions and habits to keep this to a minimum, but I don't think I'd give it a blanket recommedation to others who might not recognize the negative potential for misapplication. You may have overstated its harmlessness.

 

[EDED]

And the detrivores I use are sow bugs (another isopod), 2 species of worm (including red wigglers), tiny millipedes, spring tails, 2 species of tiny land snail, and predatory mites (to keep other mites at bay). So you only need a small colony of each if you have the other species aiding in the maintenance of the tank.

hah, damn nice 'stack' of cleaning crew, i like that

thanks for the info

 

[sharpfang]

Communal Set-ups

I 'd like to set-up p.ornata and Avi. Avic. 10 a cage.................................

View attachment 80712 They are found in the wild that way
But, they do pick off weak and injured.
Naturalistic set-ups a must 4 colony...
Jason....

 

[SandyMuffinCakes94]

And for those who love the vases my room is full of them. Some contain tarantulas, others tailless whip scorpions, scorpions, jumping spiders, trapdoors, centipedes, and so on. All my tanks are decorative furniture. I'll post a video or more photos once my 3 large tanks are finished.

Id like to see more of the vases that is such a wonderful decorative idea!

 

[Venari]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread - I was searching for something else, and this caught my eye.

Tell me more about that Vase setup. Substrate? Lid/stopper? Ventilation? Cleaning Crew? Humidity?

I found something similar at Michaels that could work, if I could fashion some sort of secure, ventilated lid for it.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread - I was searching for something else, and this caught my eye.

Tell me more about that Vase setup. Substrate? Lid/stopper? Ventilation? Cleaning Crew? Humidity?

I found something similar at Michaels that could work, if I could fashion some sort of secure, ventilated lid for it.

You being with a drainage layer of gravel, covered with a layer of sand. Your substrate depends on the plants you want to keep. With ferns there needs to be more decaying organic matter. With plants that need drier conditions, use more sand for drainage. Mine are a mix of cocofiber, peat moss, top soil, earthworm casings, sand, and leaves/moss.

No lid stopper needed, the glass is usually heavy enough and well enough fit to keep the animal inside. I do only house dwarf species in a vase though. Ventilation is not really needed as the plants produce oxygen and the combination of acidic substrate and cleaning crew removes mold build up. Humidity is kept nearly constant due to the enclosed space, but every few months it can be misted with distilled water. As for a clean up crew use small snails, isopods, red wiggler worms, and springtails. Tiny millipedes also work well too.

 

[Venari]

Ventilation is not really needed as the plants produce oxygen

I have a small glass jar in my back yard that would look pretty with a small plant in, and it reminded me of a project I read about in grade school: Put a plant in an airtight container, with some water, and leave where you get a natural day/night cycle, and the plant provides it's own oxygen/carbon dioxide, and condensation of the water within will continuously water the plant.

I got to wondering if adding a T, and pillbugs, would work: Throw in prey every now and then, and the T would drink from the condensation, and be supplied with air from the plant - just somehow make sure there is a shorter night cycle, if possible.


As to that particular setup, I'd have to do some research on plant care - I've never tried anything with live plants, and would need either practice, or extensive tutorial on it's care with a T in there with it. I wouldn't want to blindly throw in a plant and hope for the best.

Interesting thoughts.

 

[seanbond]

very nice setups!!

 

[Dinho]

H. incei tank is awesome

 

[AbraxasComplex]

H. incei tank is awesome

Thanks. I'll post pics of its current state soon. After years of having the bromeliad and the creeping fig in that tank the webbing finally over took the creeping fig and killed it. I removed the bromeliad and placed it in my chicken spider tank and it is starting to grow new leaves. I replaced all the plants with marble pothos and it seems to be doing better. The leaves grow high enough that the H.incei do not web them over, they just web around the base and the stems.

I'll post it in my picture thread though, as this thread is considerably older.

My New Thread