Chill Pill

[YungRasputin]

so, hear me out - random thought:

if bee’s become sedated via smoke - is there an equivalent for arachnids? this never occurred to me but the other smoking thread made me think of this

 

[Jumbie Spider]

so, hear me out - random thought:

if bee’s become sedated via smoke - is there an equivalent for arachnids? this never occurred to me but the other smoking thread made me think of this

Yeah... it's called C02.

 

[Squitchy]

I can't really give a good answer on the smoke thing, but know for a fact co2 isn't a good option unless you want to humanely euthanize your T. You might be able to balance out the levels and slow it down without killing it, but the risk isn't worth it imo. The only thing I can think of (and I've never tried this myself) would be somehow chilling the enclosure or area around it down. Though you would need to be extremely careful you don't kill the T in the process. Cold temperatures will 100% make it slow down and lethargic, it's just once they cross that temperature of no return is over for them.

 

[YungRasputin]

I can't really give a good answer on the smoke thing, but know for a fact co2 isn't a good option unless you want to humanely euthanize your T. You might be able to balance out the levels and slow it down without killing it, but the risk isn't worth it imo. The only thing I can think of (and I've never tried this myself) would be somehow chilling the enclosure or area around it down. Though you would need to be extremely careful you don't kill the T in the process, though cold temperatures will male it slow down and lethargic.

I don’t have any intentions on trying any of this this thread is moreso hypothetical and I was curious if there was an info related to this

 

[Squitchy]

I don’t have any intentions on trying any of this this thread is moreso hypothetical and I was curious if there was an info related to this

I want to look into this a bit myself, because it's pretty interesting. For me the best thing to make the Ts I own chill out is throwing them a feeder. Once they are eating they focus on that and could care less about what I'm doing.

 

[Poonjab]

Weed, man.....

 

[The Snark]

Bees aren't sedated. They communicate danger by releasing pheromones signalling the other bees to attack. Smoke masks the scent. Solitary bees will still sting but the hive won't go after you in a swarm.

 

[viper69]

I don’t have any intentions on trying any of this this thread is moreso hypothetical and I was curious if there was an info related to this

never heard or heard of a thing like bees for arachs

 

[The Snark]

never heard or heard of a thing like bees for arachs

Well, they don't have a hive mind so the smoke is out. As for a sedative, just ask any vet. Sedatives for animals are few and far between and dosage between sedation and lethal often has a razors edge separation. And then the effects of various sedatives varies from species to species to an extreme degree. This isn't even a road that science has been inclined to explore in detail.

PS if bees got sedated, why do bee keepers still wear veils and other protective gear as they pull the combs?

 

[viper69]

Well, they don't have a hive mind so the smoke is out. As for a sedative, just ask any vet. Sedatives for animals are few and far between and dosage between sedation and lethal often has a razors edge separation. And then the effects of various sedatives varies from species to species to an extreme degree. This isn't even a road that science has been inclined to explore in detail.

PS if bees got sedated, why do bee keepers still wear veils and other protective gear as they pull the combs?

Not sure they are sedated actually.
But I watched a show, and show said they can still sting.

 

[The Snark]

But I watched a show, and show said they can still sting

Individuals will, of course. The real defense of a hive, as seen everywhere from a person killed by bee stings on out to cartoons, is when the workers swarm to attack. There is at least one video out there where this is demonstrated, The top is removed from a smoked hive and the bees just crawl around, taking flight now and then. Then the top is removed from an unsmoked hive and a fountain of bees shoots up. The guy in protective gear that removed the top is almost instantly covered head to foot in bees.

 

[Ceymann]

In additon to masking alarm pheromones I thought smoke flipped a "hive preservation" switch in bees, where they gorge themselves with honey for energy to possibly "abandon" or move the hive and thus become lethargic /sedated from gorging themselves.

For Ts, I dont think prozac or lithium would work, you can use CO2 to sedate Ts, its one of the methods they use when milking spiders via small jolts of electricity, however you have to know what you are doing, too much results in death obviously.

Curious if chloroform would have an effect on inverts? pretty easy to make with ice, bleach acetone.
probably not a good idea though

 

[The Snark]

In additon to masking alarm pheromones I thought smoke flipped a "hive preservation" switch in bees, where they gorge themselves with honey for energy to possibly "abandon" or move the hive

Beekeepers use smoke to distract bees: It makes the bees think a wildfire is near and triggers them to gorge on honey so that if they need to evacuate, they won’t lose their entire honey stock. The smoke also blocks chemical signals the bees send to one another, which would help them organize a defense attack against you. To a new beekeeper, this can all sound pretty stressful, so you might opt to not use smoke at all. Not advised. If you don’t use your smoker, the bees will likely react defensively, sting your bee suit, and die. You may end up killing a large number of bees in this way, and you could also endanger your neighbors if the bees become especially agitated. (Neighbors who get stung tend not to be very understanding.)

 

[viper69]

Individuals will, of course. The real defense of a hive, as seen everywhere from a person killed by bee stings on out to cartoons, is when the workers swarm to attack. There is at least one video out there where this is demonstrated, The top is removed from a smoked hive and the bees just crawl around, taking flight now and then. Then the top is removed from an unsmoked hive and a fountain of bees shoots up. The guy in protective gear that removed the top is almost instantly covered head to foot in bees.

never done it, don’t know

 

[BoyFromLA]

To me, regardless where tarantulas originally came from, OW or NW, expect the worst case scenario, and be cautious, and be ready for it.

Respect them as they are, for them you are the threat for sure.

Having this embed into any interactions with them, would be the better method than looking for any other, if any, ‘chill pill’ method.

 

[l4nsky]

Anaesthesia
Several key obstacles limit successful anaesthetic and analgesic use in invertebrates. These include subjectivity in pain assessment; inadequate knowledge of anaesthetic and analgesic efficacy, safety, dosages and dosing frequency across species; the inability to monitor anaesthetic depth; pharmacokinetics of anaesthetic and analgesic drugs and the unknown relationship between risks and benefits for specific drugs (Sladky, 2014).

Anaesthesia may be necessary to allow physical examination, to allow for diagnostic sampling, and to allow for treatment such
as exoskeleton repair or manual removal of ectoparasites. Gaseous anaesthetics are the method of choice for anaesthe-
tising tarantulas. Isoflurane and sevoflurane are both effective and commonly used anaesthetic gases in the clinical setting. In-
duction can be slow, taking as long as 20 minutes before thereis a loss of righting reflex. Carbon dioxide has also been used by
entomologists for anaesthesia, although this option is controversial and it is not an anesthetic agent. (Sladky, 2014).

The animal can be placed under a large mammalian facemask or in an induction chamber, and gas is then passed over the body (Figure 9a). Most terrestrial invertebrates use a tracheal system
for respiration and can readily absorb volatile anaesthetic gases. Gas enters the trachea through the spiracles and travels through
the tracheoles to the fluid-filled tips where gas and oxygen diffuses directly from tracheoles into the cells, and carbon dioxide diffuses from the cells into the tracheoles. It is also important to understand that respiratory openings of most arthropods are not
found on the head but on the body at various locations. Masks over the head of tarantulas will not be effective to maintain an-
aesthesia and delivery of gas needs to be directed to the respiratory openings. In tarantulas the abdomen needs to be contained within the mask as the book lungs are located on the ventral abdomen (Figure 9b). Another method of anaesthetising the animal is to place the invertebrate in a closed container with a cotton ball saturated with isoflurane or sevoflurane liquid. Care must be taken not to allow the spider to come into direct contact with the saturated
cotton wool ball. The primary concern with either of these methods is the risk of environmental gas exposure of personnel.
Monitoring anaesthetic depth can be a bit of a challenge: there is a lack of available methods other than the loss of the righting reflex, and a reaction or otherwise to noxious stimuli such as a hypodermic needle stick. Many invertebrates experience asystole when anaesthetised but recover without incident. Methods for detection of heart movement have been described but are not
clinically feasible in most cases. It is best to keep the anaesthetic level as low as possible, while achieving and maintaining immo-
bilisation. Recovery may require exposing the animal to oxygen in a mask or chamber.
It is unknown whether invertebrates experience pain or are merely capable of demonstrating a reflexive response to a noxious stimulus (Murray, 2012). More importantly, we need to be able to
recognise apparent signs of pain in invertebrates even though it is unknown whether the perception of pain is equivalent to that of a mammal, bird or reptile. Many would argue that invertebrates do not have the same anatomic or physiological capabilities to
process pain. Little is known about analgesia in invertebrates but many species, especially the cephalopods have well developed
nervous systems and some species respond to opioids in a similar manner to mammals. Evidence in support of invertebrates
experiencing pain is inconclusive but interesting nonetheless. It has been shown that tarantulas react to painful thermal stimuli
in a manner similar to mammals, birds and reptiles. In addition, needle insertion into the exoskeleton incites an immediate with-
drawal reaction followed by limb rubbing at the site of needle insertion. Administration of opioids have shown to affect responses
to noxious stimuli in tarantulas but dosages required are relatively high (Sladky, 2014). Appropriate anaesthesia should therefore
be used to prevent any response to noxious stimuli. Hypothermia is not considered a humane method of anaesthesia as there is no
loss of sensation.

Tarantula Husbandry and Critical Care

 

[YungRasputin]

To me, regardless where tarantulas originally came from, OW or NW, expect the worst case scenario, and be cautious, and be ready for it.

Respect them as they are, for them you are the threat for sure.

Having this embed into any interactions with them, would be the better method than looking for any other, if any, ‘chill pill’ method.

as previously stated the purpose of this thread was strictly curiosity - to see if there was information on this out there or if anyone knew anything about this - it’s decidedly not for use on OW’s given their various reputations within and without the hobby

this aside, re: other comments, there’s a big difference between sedation + anesthetization; sedation, in the clinical sense, is referent to a hypnotic effect which calms the subject rather than something which renders the subject unconscious or is otherwise chemically immobilizing