Ceder paranoia - justified?

[LadySharon]

First, pardon me if I'm spelling Ceder wrong. It doesn't look right but the spell checker says it's ok.

Awhile ago I recall reading something that said that ceder was an insecticide. And there was a thread on here where someone mentioned that they believe having a ceder chest in their room killed half their collection - even though they swear they didn't touch the chest and then the T's ... they claimed it was just being in the presence of the chest. - as soon as they removed the chest the T's stopped dieing.

So I've been avoiding it.

Now I'm house hunting - and trying to make sure stuff like cabinets wouldn't be made out of ceder. However two things happened that made me want to write this thread.

First - at costco there is a very neat planter box set up. They finally had a display of it - and it was clearly marked that you get 6 pieces for 300. you have to put it together but that's ok.

I really want a garden and was thinking of using those in the yard of whatever house I buy (if I find one this spring). They are light colored so I thought they were pine or something. But no. I look at the sign and it says "NATURAL CEDER" I'm like WHAT?! and I touched it too! (I washed my hands when I got home)

Now I had thought that ceder was supposed to be red or redish... this was a white wood. To back it up - the second thing.... one of the houses I looked at had ceder closets. - that is paneling of ceder in the back. and that WAS red. not stained.. that is it wasn't uniformity red... but red um not sure if "streaks" is the right word here. Maybe "marbled" red and white wood.

Then on top of all that... my mom told me most privacy fences are made of ceder.

If it's outside I'd be afraid of caring the oils and stuff inside you know?


So my question is... am I being overly paranoid about this?
CAN I have ceder planter boxes - and go out and plant in them without risking my T's? How about ceder fences or ceder bark as mulch? (I still don't trust anything installed in the house)

Thanks for any help/opeions/stories.

- Sharon

 

[JimM]

Way, way WAY paranoid.
I used fully cured western red cedar IN my enclosures with no problems.

I use the the bark all the time, and the actual wood as well...small pieces in sling enclosures mainly, but also some larger pieces in more naturalistic setups.

I should also mention that I work in Parks, chainsaw and handle the stuff all the time, then mess with my T's.

The point here being that you can relax.

 

[Jilly1337]

It isn't like a chemical pesticide. It just repels spiders and insects because the oils in it are strong. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

 

[LadySharon]

Alright I found the stupid thread. I WAS spelling it wrong. (wonder what "cedEr" really is if spell checker didn't catch it?)

Here is what caused my paranoia:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=127765&highlight=cedar+chest

 

[JimM]

Yes, well here's a good example of theory vs actual practice/empirical data. I can speak first hand about Western Red Cedar, not any other species. Also, once again, the pieces I use are aged/cured for some time. I do however use bark fresh off the tree with no problems whatsoever. Now that bark was in very close contact with the wood wouldn't you say? That should give you a good idea of how much you'd need to worry about having a cedar planter just on the property somewhere.

I'd never put a large, wet piece in a tarantula enclosure. In any case, the salient point here is that you don't have to worry about having it nearby.

 

[Arachnoholic420]

i have known a few collector that actually mix cedar mulch with their substrate... and one of them is a breeder... he's been using that mix with his T's for years and never had any issue...

 

[thevez2]

Alright I found the stupid thread. I WAS spelling it wrong. (wonder what "cedEr" really is if spell checker didn't catch it?)

Ceder : to yield or grant typically by treaty
Etymology: French or Latin; French céder, from Latin cedere to go, withdraw, yield

 

[jebbewocky]

I was thinking of something else, but that's actually spelled seder I think.

I wouldn't use it in an enclosure, personally, just because it might bother them (not "harm" per seh, just annoy/bother/stress out), and I probably wouldn't put them in a cabinet made out of pine/cedar/misc aromatic wood, but beyond that--I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[LadySharon]

ok! Thanks for the responces everyone. I feel better about it now.

On a related question... if the prior owners/the bank/the lender of a house, bug bombs the place (or something similar - not talking to the point where humans couldn't go in for a showing a day or two later) without letting me know about it... at what point would it be safe? Like say they did it right before putting the house on the market - and I bought it and closed a month later - would that be safe at that point?

Anything else I need to watch out for/ask the seller about when dealing with buying a house?

- Sharon

 

[whitewolf]

ok! Thanks for the responces everyone. I feel better about it now.

On a related question... if the prior owners/the bank/the lender of a house, bug bombs the place (or something similar - not talking to the point where humans couldn't go in for a showing a day or two later) without letting me know about it... at what point would it be safe? Like say they did it right before putting the house on the market - and I bought it and closed a month later - would that be safe at that point?

Anything else I need to watch out for/ask the seller about when dealing with buying a house?

- Sharon

Just clean and wipe it down when you move in.

 

[cacoseraph]

western red is not a true cedar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Red_Cedar



also, i doubt that cedar would outright kill a spider very easily. but i also expect it CAN affect fitness and fecundity. ah, in point of fact my grandma has a cedar extract spray and i have dosed stuff before... it usually doesn't seem to die but i vaguely remember gimping some tiny spiders out with it. dunno what is in the spray... might not even be an actual cedar extract


i know this isn't great reasoning... but ppl HAVE been using cedar for hundreds of years to keep bugs away. it's used in chateau's so that they don't have to worry about getting spider webs off the high high roof... it is used in chests so that bugs are less inclined to make nests in your clothes. now, i have never seen genuine scientific correlative studies for the ACTUAL benefit of cedar to repel bugs... but i suspect someone would have pointed it out if it was complete bunk


futher cedars appear to either be a type of pine or closely related, many, if not all pine family plants have turpenes in them. turpenes are where TURPENTINE came from originally.


you have to consider that some of our taras can live for more than 30 years. even if every year they "just get a little poisoned" that *could* add up over the years!

i sort of recall Darrin Vernier doing a basic experiment with raising mealworms on one of the reptile bark type of things.... turns out it was a mutagen teratogen. that means he made a bunch of mutants and monsters. now, there *is* a certain appeal to such things for me... but i suspect the average owner would be disappointed if their beloved spider started sprouting extra legs =P

 

[Buckwheat]

Look, there is no reason to not stick to established substrates that are proven. Where do tarantulas in the wild live in, on or near Cedar trees or the like?
but really having said that, where do they live on potting soil either?..:? these are spiders kids. Nothing more. You could go outside, throw in about 6 good shovels full of plain old dirt and crawlers would love it to death. I've kept them for over 36 years and never lost one due to whatever it was living on. Dirt will do.
We somehow like to think that potting soil, co co fiber and whatnot will somehow be the ticket when in fact, dirt would do nicely. It is simply the fact that potting soil and the co co fiber thing are easy, fast and fairly clean to start with. If you doubt that, take a trip to Costa Rica, spend a full week in the bush and see how they live. I did. They live in/on wet, mud, dirt wet vegetation and all manner of substrate that you would be agast at. No kidding. I'm not saying you should or should not use this stuff. I'm saying we simply worry too much about this and that in this hobby. They are spiders. Put them in there, leave them alone, let them do what they do and observe, learn and then pass on what you learn.

Just a thought.
*POOF*

 

[LadySharon]

how did this turn into a "what to put into your tank" thread?

I just wanted to know if it was ok to use cedar OUTSIDE - in case the oils got on me and killed the T.

I think the responces indicated that I was being paranoid on it. So case closed on that.


Though I will say this, buckwheat - this is why I don't care if substrate gets in teh water thing. I don't change the water every day. Maybe once a week if they need it. (oh and it's different if there's a drowned and rotting crix in there - then I do change it). Because in the wild there would be mud and stangnit water puddles and everything mixed in the water they drink and it doesn't hurt them. So I don't feel I need to give them pristine water.

Anyway the point was the thread wasn't about putting cedar in the TANK.

thanks
- Sharon

 

[Durandal]

On a related question... if the prior owners/the bank/the lender of a house, bug bombs the place (or something similar - not talking to the point where humans couldn't go in for a showing a day or two later) without letting me know about it... at what point would it be safe? Like say they did it right before putting the house on the market - and I bought it and closed a month later - would that be safe at that point?

I didn't think of that!! I just bought a house... oh no... MY BABIES!! I've been here for almost 5 months and nothing has gone wrong so I think I'll be ok.

About what to ask, half of the time the harmful stuff like febreeze etc they won't even remember when the last time they used it was. The best thing to do is to clean the entire house (you'll want to do this anyway, believe me.) air it out a bunch (you'll also want this to get rid of that "previous owner" smell.) and don't bring your Ts into the house for as long as you can to prevent anything that might be lingering from hurting them.

There isn't much else you can do but clean and air it out.

 

[JimM]

western red is not a true cedar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Red_Cedar

Irrelevant to this conversion, just a matter of the genus someone decided to stick them in, and nothing to do with the properties of the wood itself. Properties which are very similar to your "true" cedars in your context, as Thuja plicata does have terpenes as well.

In any case, I haven't found this species to be problematic with tarantulas, with caveats noted above.

 

[Bill S]

The issue with cedar is that it contains aromatic oils (including cedrol and cedrene). These can cause damage, and have been shown to cause liver and pulmonary toxicity in cases of prolonged heavy exposure. They've been blamed for deaths of reptiles that have had chronic direct or indirect exposure to the oils.

Being aromatic oils, they do dissipate. A piece of cedar exposed to sun and fresh air (such as on a fence) will eventually dry out. So do cedar-lined closets, mulch, etc. The biggest problem with cedar exposure in reptiles was with fresh cedar chips being used as bedding for mice, which were in turn fed to snakes. Aromatic oils were still present in/on the mice, and had impacts on the snakes. (Gradual impact - nothing quick or accute.)

If you used fresh cedar chips as a tarantula substrate, you'd probably see your tarantulas fade out over time. Aged cedar or cedar mulch? Hard to say. For me it's not worth taking the chance. There are less risky substrates that are commonly available. As for having cedar closets in the same house - I don't see that as a risk. I have a large cedar chest in the room next to my tarantula room, and keep a container of cedar chips in the closet of the bedroom on the other side of the tarantula room, and haven't seen any impact at all on my spiders.

 

[jebbewocky]

The issue with cedar is that it contains aromatic oils (including cedrol and cedrene). These can cause damage, and have been shown to cause liver and pulmonary toxicity in cases of prolonged heavy exposure. They've been blamed for deaths of reptiles that have had chronic direct or indirect exposure to the oils.

Being aromatic oils, they do dissipate. A piece of cedar exposed to sun and fresh air (such as on a fence) will eventually dry out. So do cedar-lined closets, mulch, etc. The biggest problem with cedar exposure in reptiles was with fresh cedar chips being used as bedding for mice, which were in turn fed to snakes. Aromatic oils were still present in/on the mice, and had impacts on the snakes. (Gradual impact - nothing quick or accute.)

If you used fresh cedar chips as a tarantula substrate, you'd probably see your tarantulas fade out over time. Aged cedar or cedar mulch? Hard to say. For me it's not worth taking the chance. There are less risky substrates that are commonly available. As for having cedar closets in the same house - I don't see that as a risk. I have a large cedar chest in the room next to my tarantula room, and keep a container of cedar chips in the closet of the bedroom on the other side of the tarantula room, and haven't seen any impact at all on my spiders.

Good to know drying helps. I bought some drift wood, which is probably pine, and put it in before I thought of the type of wood. Being drift wood, it's dried out, so I'm all set.
Now, I just hope it doesn't mold. It shouldn't, since it was made for aquariums. Failing that, there's always isopods.

 

[cacoseraph]

dang, Bill. another great post!






my general rule of thumb (nose?) for wood and bugs is this:
if it smells good to me it is probably bad for them