Moebius
Arachnopeon
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2017
- Messages
- 48
Here's a big response on the issue at large, Rayan, and some explanation why you might feel crucified for even asking. A bit of rant, a bit of comedy, a whole lot of epic facepalming. 
Likely to put you to sleep, but meh, I figure it's better to inform than just give a short, hostile response to your curiosity. Without further ado, here's my POV, I've tried to make it at least somewhat readable. Notice how long this is? I'm killing time before a long road trip and a borked sleep pattern.
Folks that say "just curious" in my experience often have an agenda (exceptions happen, of course, but it's pretty frequent, especially on this topic given common responses by those who inquire), so if you feel a bit like Frankenstein's monster when the villagers came with pitchforks and torches, you should be aware of the reason. A lot of the inquiries don't pan out to be innocent ones (some of us are, or have been part of other groups, and see the same folks then start fishing elsewhere when they don't find approval here). Tarantula keepers have been repeatedly burned and outright ripped off by problems associated with the topic, and still are to this day. It's a sore subject for many. You're curious, so here's some answers for you including the fallout related to it that affects more than just the average hobbyist. That said, wanting to hunt down the mini-communities who've mucked around with this thing, well, that's going to start to look less like curiosity (beyond if there was a cool-looking result) and more "I don't like the answer I got here, because folks are against it". That sets off warning flags for many people.
It's a tiny, tiny minority of the ignorant who try to present themselves as otherwise getting shot down for this kind of wilful ignorance, and you rarely see their faces again after a year selling anything again beyond very local, or at some shitty Expo (to likewise ignorant people who don't know better like con artists, bleh), because nowhere else wants them to, and they rely on the uninformed making impulse buys. Their groups rarely last long, as they're frequently reactionary "screw people for saying it's a bad thing" responses that eventually burn out when the pity-party gets old anyhow. They'd then rather fire a reference off on an active board that isn't as moderated/watched as here by the community at large to try and stir the pot, get a reaction like an immature edge-lord and hope maybe someone ignorant of the issue might PM them for a sale (the real motivation), because god damn they need the money, didn't have proper breeding stock (and don't have the money to get some), or to find a new "bud" to support them in their endeavour (again, to eventually sell to or get stuff from via trade). I wish this was purely projection, but sadly that's the sorry cycle this tends to fall into. They'll have a ridiculous price for the thing too no less because they sure aren't doing volume sales while being honest on what they have. Nobody in the know about it consistently wants their slings and they stubbornly persist like they're some resistance cell of some needlessly persecuted "innocents". They generally know the demand for hybrids is low to non-existant, which is why they take used-car saleman routines on how "rare and special" the hybrid is to inflate the price and find some poor sucker to take the bait. Been there, seen that. Unfortunately taking a piece of re-bar rolled up in a newspaper and smacking them upside the head to get some sense with it is illegal.
I wish this was just supposition and joking vs. firsthand experience, but I've ran into these folks pulling this routine, offline and online. It's small numbers, but when one finally withers and dies like an invasive weed, another tends to pop back up to relive the experience. They're a problematic and negative part of hobby, a tumour really that has the chance to spread it's cancerous cells far and wide when not kept in check (all those slings... crimeny). I'm not going to point others in their direction, and it would be very irresponsible to do so. If you want to see something cool, check out gynandromorphs (some real stark wowers), or the funky ones that survived with odd deformities like double spinneret clusters and such. It blows any hybrid out of the water when it happens regardless. Otherwise it's a bit too much "I'm just curious and don't REALLY want some heroin... but can you set me up with some connections of people that deal it? I'm curious" for my comfort levels.
Folks that did so by accident (ID mistakes can and do happen) and admit to such as soon as they know, offer recompense and do something about the egg-sac generally get a reprieve. Folks that just carry on and brush it off... good luck selling enough numbers to justify further breeding again when found (not if), word travels fast (and needs to). The ones that do, often do it in areas where there are no other breeders present and feel they won't get flack too fast to boot. You can find old threads on the British Tarantula Society forum and various other (mostly inactive these days) forums discussing the results where it has been seen. I've never seen anything over the years that made me go "wow, the offspring is really divergent/cool looking compared to the original species" though. For every one of those folks that made an honest ID mistake and handles it responsibly (like euthanizing the sac), there's another that's doing it intentionally it seems. Just one of those getting out can pose big problems if it has to be sold down the road. Once it's out of their hands, there's no control over what is done with the hybrid later, including breeding. Now magnify that further if you hold onto dozens, or hundreds of them that could end up far and wide, each and every one of them potentially capable of making a sac of their own. It's not pretty.
That responsible approach, by the way, tends to have a whole lot of outright uninformed folks flip-their-shit on Youtube and Facebook though; no associations with the hobby, but the idea that you killed a spider's egg sac so it doesn't WRECK a species in captivity and the wild gets some arm-chair crusaders in a tizzy. Even when they just poisoned a few ant colonies, whacked a bunch of flies and toasted a wasp nest the month earlier. (where's that derp icon when you need it?). will have to suffice.
All that aside, yes, some hybrids produce offspring with similar hybrids. There's a reason why hobby form Brachypelma vagan hobby forms are so common, the same with Brachypelma albopilosum and various Poecilotheria that have had the misfortune from sloppy pairing and poor IDing in the past and successive pairing. If you're hunting around for Brachypelma baumgarteni, odds are you're going to pay a high price for something that often isn't what you actually wanted (or worth the increased price remotely) either.
A 3x cross? Likely possible, if not already present with some hobby forms (B. vagans have a lot of similar species in their genus that aren't all that different looking without some effort taken to ID as is before touching something more divergent looking compared to them in their genus. We are pretty sure the hobby forms may have a couple different red rumps in them as is in some cases, that's not even before touching the old crosses with B. albopilosum). End result? With the assumptions made on mistaken IDs with just B. vagans, you get... something that looks like a B. vagans. The B. albopilosums with dubious genetics? Not too drastic of a difference, but nothing actually impressive enough to warrant it, they actually look less nice in my opinion. The hybrid Poecilotheria weren't anything notable. The colorful Brachy crosses didn't really look all that impressive compared to pre-existing beauties that normally are as a species. If anything, it's been mostly disappointing even from a visual standpoint regarding the outcomes. An honest expectation of a P. metallica with a P. regalis would be... a muted, less blue offspring that might have a bit more abdominal striping (if at all) when older, if that. Expect dilution, rather than all the best flashy aspects transferring over fully (as that is rarely the case). That's assuming they even took to each other.
You have to wonder where the majority of their slings disappear to, as they aren't selling out of the numbers they produce. If they aren't neglected to death (hard to do for many hardy T species, but some manage it), you can often find a "selling collection" advertisement on an buy/sell/trade site or newspaper. You rarely hear of them destroying the sac before it develops with mobile offspring either, at least when it comes to the folks doing it intentionally. Some have the misfortune (for the end-buyers) of pawning the sacs off to a local shop or some broker-in-the-guise-of-a-dealer like Backwater Reptiles. The idea "this was a mistake" doesn't seem to sink in fast enough before it turns "this was a mistake, but I need some money, so I'm selling them regardless the fastest way possible" takes precedence. Seeing a problem?
They'll sometimes point to some species that may have natural overlap... but ask them to cite their information resources and show confirmation in the wild and you'll find it remarkably sparse at best, though more often absent entirely and utterly anecdotal "some dude said so on FB that nobody is familiar with". I've already heard enough made up BS regarding G. pulchra lately to last me quite some years, enough that I'm very hesitant to buy them at all until more folks get their shit (and information sources) together broad base beyond anecdotes, taken down sketchy papers and a whole lot of misinformation. Not a problem for that new person wanting a "nice big black spider", beyond them potentially paying a very high price for something that may really not justify it, along with a wrong ID which may pose problems later if it's bred or sold again. Personally, I don't agree with their high prices given their current situation regardless.
For some hobbyists it's enough to ditch certain dealers/vendors outright, if not avoid a species until folks with a concrete idea are selling. That's just with poor ID'ing and sloppy paperwork going on, never mind confirmed hybirds tangling the situation more (and if it is found out, yup, they were successfully crossed, expect that "cash cow" species to plummet in price without something to prove they're selling the real deal). Sucks to be the breeders at that point that wanted to give them a go, your average new keeper is just going to b-line for the cheapest available price anyhow.
There's a reason hybrid enthusiasts tend to cluster in tiny micro-communites after, tend to be full of a "type" of person that often sees negative stereotypes, sneering at "those ass**les at Arachnoboards, the BTS etc." like some support group burned by some monolithic bogeyman, despite their literally being no upside whatsoever to purposely crossing and massive downsides. You don't get a cooler looking spider by default. You don't necessarily get a tougher/hardy offspring (even where it's been touted, it's more speculative as it could simply be due to the slings being reared outright in captivity, intentions aside). You don't know what behavioural aspects will be present, and the bulk of what we have seen doesn't result in anything all that impressive compared to the proper species originally used in the attempt. That isn't supposition, that's reality. Not knowing isn't an onus to hybridize when sacs produce dozens of unwanted offspring, if not hundreds or more. It's also not all that interesting or intriguing of a subject beyond the whole "forbidden fruit that actually tastes like a dog turd when you finally take a bite". The hybrids themselves are unimpressive. The controversy, clandestine "pssst, hey kid, wanna buy a hybrid? It's what the cool kids do" buffoonery and drama far eclipses the actual subject itself lol.
Believe me, all sorts have tried crossing some pretty crazy stuff to no (thankfully) result beyond one of the T's whacking the other. Cross species? Pffft, cross genus! IT'LL BE A GOLDMINE I TELL YA. Nobody understands their genuis and entrepreneurial spirit! Like trailblazing scientists before, they're pushing the envelope of what is known! It's for, er science (finger upraised), SCIENCE. Without following anything of the scientific theory, let alone a proper species name beyond some hazy common name. Ehem.
It's not new. It's not radical. It's old-hat, very, very old-hat, decades old. We see someone pipe up every year, thinking they're doing something ground-breaking vs repeating a past mistake already done many times over because they didn't look hard enough (or at all). They usually repeat the same responses, react the same way, and end up with the same results, thinking instead they're ending up with some insanely overpriced Flowerhorn style fish they can sell for the big bucks to people into Ts. Basically, there's a huge disconnect with reality. On boards like this, inquiries are like marking the passage of the seasons. "Here we go again, that time of year, which newcomer is going to ask or try to subtly sell the hybrids they just made, and what old-timer is going to troll post for hijinks".
Where it's a real problem in general is that it's difficult at times to find the real deal compared to the mongrels at times with quite a few species, sadly (the more impressive real deal Ceratogyrus brachycephalus "wild forms" are a good example of this issue where the real deal is also more expensive to boot; you're more likely to see the obvious hybrids around). Hysterocrates as a whole in the hobby is a damn slop of hybrids (but at least there's a push for locality references and sticking by that vs. tacked on inaccurate names). It then also puts more emphasis on wild caughts to boot, because if the bulk of what's cheaply available in the hobby is a mutt, the folks that actually want the species they're paying for rather than some dupe are likely going to have to bring in more wild caughts to get the proper bloodline again when it gets overshadowed by the cheaper mongrels (which also makes it harder to sell the real deal at all comparatively). That screws over the wild population and the hobby at the same time without one positive point to justify it. There isn't many things in the hobby that has so many downsides and no real upside, but this one does.
The general hobby and breeding industry preference would be to see these hobby forms (that is, hybrid mutts) outright gone, but realistically they aren't going anywhere all that soon, some just want a fluffy, inexpensive spider and have no vested interest (or awareness) of the issues. Few new keepers know or care that they've got a hobby form "Curly Hair" or "Mexican Red Rump", just that it's cheaper than most pets out there, and so they're still reproduced to meet the demand until hopefully, folks focus more on the pure species and they eclipse the hobby forms again. At least we can can get some of the species that got hosed by this in the past more readily that aren't more hobby forms, if one cares to look around at least, but it sucks needing to take extra effort and steps just to get what we should have gotten to begin with, eh?.
Likely to put you to sleep, but meh, I figure it's better to inform than just give a short, hostile response to your curiosity. Without further ado, here's my POV, I've tried to make it at least somewhat readable. Notice how long this is? I'm killing time before a long road trip and a borked sleep pattern. Folks that say "just curious" in my experience often have an agenda (exceptions happen, of course, but it's pretty frequent, especially on this topic given common responses by those who inquire), so if you feel a bit like Frankenstein's monster when the villagers came with pitchforks and torches, you should be aware of the reason. A lot of the inquiries don't pan out to be innocent ones (some of us are, or have been part of other groups, and see the same folks then start fishing elsewhere when they don't find approval here). Tarantula keepers have been repeatedly burned and outright ripped off by problems associated with the topic, and still are to this day. It's a sore subject for many. You're curious, so here's some answers for you including the fallout related to it that affects more than just the average hobbyist. That said, wanting to hunt down the mini-communities who've mucked around with this thing, well, that's going to start to look less like curiosity (beyond if there was a cool-looking result) and more "I don't like the answer I got here, because folks are against it". That sets off warning flags for many people.
It's a tiny, tiny minority of the ignorant who try to present themselves as otherwise getting shot down for this kind of wilful ignorance, and you rarely see their faces again after a year selling anything again beyond very local, or at some shitty Expo (to likewise ignorant people who don't know better like con artists, bleh), because nowhere else wants them to, and they rely on the uninformed making impulse buys. Their groups rarely last long, as they're frequently reactionary "screw people for saying it's a bad thing" responses that eventually burn out when the pity-party gets old anyhow. They'd then rather fire a reference off on an active board that isn't as moderated/watched as here by the community at large to try and stir the pot, get a reaction like an immature edge-lord and hope maybe someone ignorant of the issue might PM them for a sale (the real motivation), because god damn they need the money, didn't have proper breeding stock (and don't have the money to get some), or to find a new "bud" to support them in their endeavour (again, to eventually sell to or get stuff from via trade). I wish this was purely projection, but sadly that's the sorry cycle this tends to fall into. They'll have a ridiculous price for the thing too no less because they sure aren't doing volume sales while being honest on what they have. Nobody in the know about it consistently wants their slings and they stubbornly persist like they're some resistance cell of some needlessly persecuted "innocents". They generally know the demand for hybrids is low to non-existant, which is why they take used-car saleman routines on how "rare and special" the hybrid is to inflate the price and find some poor sucker to take the bait. Been there, seen that. Unfortunately taking a piece of re-bar rolled up in a newspaper and smacking them upside the head to get some sense with it is illegal.
I wish this was just supposition and joking vs. firsthand experience, but I've ran into these folks pulling this routine, offline and online. It's small numbers, but when one finally withers and dies like an invasive weed, another tends to pop back up to relive the experience. They're a problematic and negative part of hobby, a tumour really that has the chance to spread it's cancerous cells far and wide when not kept in check (all those slings... crimeny). I'm not going to point others in their direction, and it would be very irresponsible to do so. If you want to see something cool, check out gynandromorphs (some real stark wowers), or the funky ones that survived with odd deformities like double spinneret clusters and such. It blows any hybrid out of the water when it happens regardless. Otherwise it's a bit too much "I'm just curious and don't REALLY want some heroin... but can you set me up with some connections of people that deal it? I'm curious" for my comfort levels.
Folks that did so by accident (ID mistakes can and do happen) and admit to such as soon as they know, offer recompense and do something about the egg-sac generally get a reprieve. Folks that just carry on and brush it off... good luck selling enough numbers to justify further breeding again when found (not if), word travels fast (and needs to). The ones that do, often do it in areas where there are no other breeders present and feel they won't get flack too fast to boot. You can find old threads on the British Tarantula Society forum and various other (mostly inactive these days) forums discussing the results where it has been seen. I've never seen anything over the years that made me go "wow, the offspring is really divergent/cool looking compared to the original species" though. For every one of those folks that made an honest ID mistake and handles it responsibly (like euthanizing the sac), there's another that's doing it intentionally it seems. Just one of those getting out can pose big problems if it has to be sold down the road. Once it's out of their hands, there's no control over what is done with the hybrid later, including breeding. Now magnify that further if you hold onto dozens, or hundreds of them that could end up far and wide, each and every one of them potentially capable of making a sac of their own. It's not pretty.
That responsible approach, by the way, tends to have a whole lot of outright uninformed folks flip-their-shit on Youtube and Facebook though; no associations with the hobby, but the idea that you killed a spider's egg sac so it doesn't WRECK a species in captivity and the wild gets some arm-chair crusaders in a tizzy. Even when they just poisoned a few ant colonies, whacked a bunch of flies and toasted a wasp nest the month earlier. (where's that derp icon when you need it?).
will have to suffice.All that aside, yes, some hybrids produce offspring with similar hybrids. There's a reason why hobby form Brachypelma vagan hobby forms are so common, the same with Brachypelma albopilosum and various Poecilotheria that have had the misfortune from sloppy pairing and poor IDing in the past and successive pairing. If you're hunting around for Brachypelma baumgarteni, odds are you're going to pay a high price for something that often isn't what you actually wanted (or worth the increased price remotely) either.
A 3x cross? Likely possible, if not already present with some hobby forms (B. vagans have a lot of similar species in their genus that aren't all that different looking without some effort taken to ID as is before touching something more divergent looking compared to them in their genus. We are pretty sure the hobby forms may have a couple different red rumps in them as is in some cases, that's not even before touching the old crosses with B. albopilosum). End result? With the assumptions made on mistaken IDs with just B. vagans, you get... something that looks like a B. vagans. The B. albopilosums with dubious genetics? Not too drastic of a difference, but nothing actually impressive enough to warrant it, they actually look less nice in my opinion. The hybrid Poecilotheria weren't anything notable. The colorful Brachy crosses didn't really look all that impressive compared to pre-existing beauties that normally are as a species. If anything, it's been mostly disappointing even from a visual standpoint regarding the outcomes. An honest expectation of a P. metallica with a P. regalis would be... a muted, less blue offspring that might have a bit more abdominal striping (if at all) when older, if that. Expect dilution, rather than all the best flashy aspects transferring over fully (as that is rarely the case). That's assuming they even took to each other.
You have to wonder where the majority of their slings disappear to, as they aren't selling out of the numbers they produce. If they aren't neglected to death (hard to do for many hardy T species, but some manage it), you can often find a "selling collection" advertisement on an buy/sell/trade site or newspaper. You rarely hear of them destroying the sac before it develops with mobile offspring either, at least when it comes to the folks doing it intentionally. Some have the misfortune (for the end-buyers) of pawning the sacs off to a local shop or some broker-in-the-guise-of-a-dealer like Backwater Reptiles. The idea "this was a mistake" doesn't seem to sink in fast enough before it turns "this was a mistake, but I need some money, so I'm selling them regardless the fastest way possible" takes precedence. Seeing a problem?
They'll sometimes point to some species that may have natural overlap... but ask them to cite their information resources and show confirmation in the wild and you'll find it remarkably sparse at best, though more often absent entirely and utterly anecdotal "some dude said so on FB that nobody is familiar with". I've already heard enough made up BS regarding G. pulchra lately to last me quite some years, enough that I'm very hesitant to buy them at all until more folks get their shit (and information sources) together broad base beyond anecdotes, taken down sketchy papers and a whole lot of misinformation. Not a problem for that new person wanting a "nice big black spider", beyond them potentially paying a very high price for something that may really not justify it, along with a wrong ID which may pose problems later if it's bred or sold again. Personally, I don't agree with their high prices given their current situation regardless.
For some hobbyists it's enough to ditch certain dealers/vendors outright, if not avoid a species until folks with a concrete idea are selling. That's just with poor ID'ing and sloppy paperwork going on, never mind confirmed hybirds tangling the situation more (and if it is found out, yup, they were successfully crossed, expect that "cash cow" species to plummet in price without something to prove they're selling the real deal). Sucks to be the breeders at that point that wanted to give them a go, your average new keeper is just going to b-line for the cheapest available price anyhow.
There's a reason hybrid enthusiasts tend to cluster in tiny micro-communites after, tend to be full of a "type" of person that often sees negative stereotypes, sneering at "those ass**les at Arachnoboards, the BTS etc." like some support group burned by some monolithic bogeyman, despite their literally being no upside whatsoever to purposely crossing and massive downsides. You don't get a cooler looking spider by default. You don't necessarily get a tougher/hardy offspring (even where it's been touted, it's more speculative as it could simply be due to the slings being reared outright in captivity, intentions aside). You don't know what behavioural aspects will be present, and the bulk of what we have seen doesn't result in anything all that impressive compared to the proper species originally used in the attempt. That isn't supposition, that's reality. Not knowing isn't an onus to hybridize when sacs produce dozens of unwanted offspring, if not hundreds or more. It's also not all that interesting or intriguing of a subject beyond the whole "forbidden fruit that actually tastes like a dog turd when you finally take a bite". The hybrids themselves are unimpressive. The controversy, clandestine "pssst, hey kid, wanna buy a hybrid? It's what the cool kids do" buffoonery and drama far eclipses the actual subject itself lol.
Believe me, all sorts have tried crossing some pretty crazy stuff to no (thankfully) result beyond one of the T's whacking the other. Cross species? Pffft, cross genus! IT'LL BE A GOLDMINE I TELL YA. Nobody understands their genuis and entrepreneurial spirit! Like trailblazing scientists before, they're pushing the envelope of what is known! It's for, er science (finger upraised), SCIENCE. Without following anything of the scientific theory, let alone a proper species name beyond some hazy common name. Ehem.
It's not new. It's not radical. It's old-hat, very, very old-hat, decades old. We see someone pipe up every year, thinking they're doing something ground-breaking vs repeating a past mistake already done many times over because they didn't look hard enough (or at all). They usually repeat the same responses, react the same way, and end up with the same results, thinking instead they're ending up with some insanely overpriced Flowerhorn style fish they can sell for the big bucks to people into Ts. Basically, there's a huge disconnect with reality. On boards like this, inquiries are like marking the passage of the seasons. "Here we go again, that time of year, which newcomer is going to ask or try to subtly sell the hybrids they just made, and what old-timer is going to troll post for hijinks".
Where it's a real problem in general is that it's difficult at times to find the real deal compared to the mongrels at times with quite a few species, sadly (the more impressive real deal Ceratogyrus brachycephalus "wild forms" are a good example of this issue where the real deal is also more expensive to boot; you're more likely to see the obvious hybrids around). Hysterocrates as a whole in the hobby is a damn slop of hybrids (but at least there's a push for locality references and sticking by that vs. tacked on inaccurate names). It then also puts more emphasis on wild caughts to boot, because if the bulk of what's cheaply available in the hobby is a mutt, the folks that actually want the species they're paying for rather than some dupe are likely going to have to bring in more wild caughts to get the proper bloodline again when it gets overshadowed by the cheaper mongrels (which also makes it harder to sell the real deal at all comparatively). That screws over the wild population and the hobby at the same time without one positive point to justify it. There isn't many things in the hobby that has so many downsides and no real upside, but this one does.
The general hobby and breeding industry preference would be to see these hobby forms (that is, hybrid mutts) outright gone, but realistically they aren't going anywhere all that soon, some just want a fluffy, inexpensive spider and have no vested interest (or awareness) of the issues. Few new keepers know or care that they've got a hobby form "Curly Hair" or "Mexican Red Rump", just that it's cheaper than most pets out there, and so they're still reproduced to meet the demand until hopefully, folks focus more on the pure species and they eclipse the hobby forms again. At least we can can get some of the species that got hosed by this in the past more readily that aren't more hobby forms, if one cares to look around at least, but it sucks needing to take extra effort and steps just to get what we should have gotten to begin with, eh?.
