Calling out the USDA

[Stylopidae]

So I finally met the farmer who grows corn next to my house and verified that he uses mantids as biological pest control (a mix of Mantis religiosa and Tenodera aridifolia sinensis) since he is in an urban setting, right on the edge of town.

Moreover, he was familiar with the USDA confiscating imported mantids. He told me he was planning on using the same method of pest control next year. He ordered the mantises through a local garden supply store (a big corporate chain who I'd rather not name).

So, I would like to know this from anyone who is familiar with the USDA policies:

Why confiscate mantids (including those needing special requirements) from hobbiests (who are only interested in keeping mantids in captivity and have no interest in releasing them into the wild) but still allow a couple of species (which can overwinter as eggcases...pretty decent size egg cases, I might add) to be used as biological pest control, which involves them purposely being released into the environment.

I've been wondering this for awhile and would like to know the answer to this question...if there is one.

 

[Amanda]

Perhaps one of the lurking agents can enlighten us.

 

[Wade]

I'm not a lurking agent, but officially I think they require a permit to release non native mantids for pest control. This does not appear to be enforced at all, however.

The USDA has indicated that the real reason they are seizing imported mantids from the pet trade is they are concerned about parasitic mites that may hitchhike on the insects. A major mite epidemic is taking a mojor toll on the beekeeping business and they claim that that is the reason for the crackdown. Personally, I think it's a long shot that a mantid parasite could make the jump to bees. They also have not indicated what they will do about domesticlly captive bred exotic species. Logically, these should be allowed, but who knows if they'll see it that way.

Wade

 

[kraken]

Another fine example at the inteligence of our government

 

[hamfoto]

well, Tenodera aridifolia sinensis is an established species in the US now just like the European ladybug, so that's why we can release them.
It doesn't mean they're good...because they're overtaking habitat from our native species. They're so widespread it would be impossible to control.
As for new species...they're trying to keep this from happening. Don't get so riled up because you can't keep something you think looks cool.
Think about what might happen if it got into an ecosystem where it thrived and outcompeted our natives...
Mantids are good for pest control in gardens...but they don't just eat pests, they eat everything.
The unfortunate thing is that some people, not most but some, just let animals go in their backyards or parks or wherever...that's where problems start.
And you have to realize that Federal laws pertain to the whole US, so when they make laws that are designed to protect certain areas of the US because of the favorable climate there, they are doing it to stop an introduced species from thriving.

Chris

 

[pinkzebra]

I garden and receive several gardening catalogs. As far as I can tell, the mantids that the large companies sell are mantids that can already be found in the wild in the U.S. To my knowledge they do not sell any kind of exotic species that has not already been intoduced to, or is native to, the U.S.

Jen

 

[Stylopidae]

well, Tenodera aridifolia sinensis is an established species in the US now just like the European ladybug, so that's why we can release them.
It doesn't mean they're good...because they're overtaking habitat from our native species. They're so widespread it would be impossible to control.
As for new species...they're trying to keep this from happening. Don't get so riled up because you can't keep something you think looks cool.
Think about what might happen if it got into an ecosystem where it thrived and outcompeted our natives...
Mantids are good for pest control in gardens...but they don't just eat pests, they eat everything.
The unfortunate thing is that some people, not most but some, just let animals go in their backyards or parks or wherever...that's where problems start.
And you have to realize that Federal laws pertain to the whole US, so when they make laws that are designed to protect certain areas of the US because of the favorable climate there, they are doing it to stop an introduced species from thriving.

Chris

Hamfoto...please read some of my other posts on this subject. This isn't about not being able to keep a bug that looks cool. Otherwise, I'd be bitching about phasmids.

I've been trying to get an answer from the USDA on the subject, by asking this very question (with near exact wording). I ended up being transferred five times, with a total hold time of three and a half hours only to be told that they 'couldn't discuss the answer to that question at this time' and was promptly disconnected.

The recent bans on mantids and assassins disturb me for two reasons.

1.) With the exception of pest species (both household and agricultural) and parasite vectors, the invertebrate hobby is either directly or indirectly responsible for a good chunk of what we know about inverts.

2.) Although I am not expecting the USDA to ask for input from invert enthusiasts every time they decide to ban something, information regarding the reasoning of the bans should be made easier to find.

Since there are lurking agents on the boards, I figured one of them might join and decide to answer the question at hand.

That would be what a good, responsible government agency would do...talk with the people.

It's hardly a matter of national security.

As for the two other species I listed, they are no doubt thriving but I've yet to see evidence that they are invasive. With the exception of the farm feild, insect populations have remained normal and I've witnessed predation on even the larger chinese species from bullfrogs (which may be introduced to my area...I don't know), american toads, crows, A. cristatus, agriope and araneus species spiders. They have natural predators.

The prarrie 200 yards from the farm feild has both a flourishing mantis and a flourishing grasshopper (among other types of insects) population. An apparrently healthy ecosystem.

So...in short I believe these species to be introduced (well...yeah), but by no means invasive.

However, I realize this could be different for different areas of the country.

 

[Amanda]

I think the point is that there is no way for the government to distinguish between irresponsible people and

hobbiests (who are only interested in keeping mantids in captivity and have no interest in releasing them into the wild).

The USDA also can't logically allow keepers in Oregon, for example, to keep a species that would become invasive if released in Florida, because there is no invisible barrier that keeps the bugs in Oregon if the keeper were to move across the country.

Those species that are used for biological pest control are most certainly either native, or have been shown to NOT be invasive (suitable natural predation, lack of food sources outside of the farm field, etc.).

 

[Stylopidae]

Actually, this was the point I was trying to make

I've been trying to get an answer from the USDA on the subject, by asking this very question (with near exact wording). I ended up being transferred five times, with a total hold time of three and a half hours only to be told that they 'couldn't discuss the answer to that question at this time' and was promptly disconnected.


The recent bans on mantids and assassins disturb me for two reasons.

1.) With the exception of pest species (both household and agricultural) and parasite vectors, the invertebrate hobby is either directly or indirectly responsible for a good chunk of what we know about inverts.

2.) Although I am not expecting the USDA to ask for input from invert enthusiasts every time they decide to ban something, information regarding the reasoning of the bans should be made easier to find.

Since there are lurking agents on the boards, I figured one of them might join and decide to answer the question at hand.

That would be what a good, responsible government agency would do...talk with the people.

I think the point is that there is no way for the government to distinguish between irresponsible people

Yes, but there's no need for a blanket ban. There are plenty of species of mantids that wouldn't be able to establish themselves in the US very easily.

 

[Amanda]

Is there currently a blanket ban on mantids? There may be, and I just don't know it... that's why I ask. There are just so many mantid keepers, I assumed that there are many many legal species to keep.

 

[Stylopidae]

Is there currently a blanket ban on mantids? There may be, and I just don't know it... that's why I ask. There are just so many mantid keepers, I assumed that there are many many legal species to keep.

I believe the ban is a blanket ban, but I'll wait for Wade to respond. He knows much more than I do.

 

[ftorres]

MANtids and USDA

HEllo All,
Evil Chelsire, have you try Calling Doctor Wehling at the APHIS headquartes?
I think he will be able to answer the question since he was the one who decide to enforce the ban now.
FT

 

[arachnocat]

It's really frustrating that the USDA does not list any phasmids or mantids in their list of pest species. I realize that they can't list every species that may be a threat to agriculture, but most pest insects are passed around and imported into the US by accident. These are pets and they obviously know that hobbyists keep them.

Why are they keeping this info secret and busting people who don't know about the bans? Why doesn't the USDA just come on the boards openly and say what is illegal to keep instead of sneaking around here? Maybe people wouldn't keep illegal pets if they were more informed.

I've had my run in with the USDA recently and when I called to ask what insects are ok to keep, they just said the only way to find out is to apply for a permit. Well that's helpful. I understand that any plant eating insect cannot be imported or shipped between states without a permit. Now mantids too? They don't even eat plants.

Just doesn't make sense to me that they can be so vague and have secret bans on things. They need to either inform the public or leave us hobbyists alone.

 

[Wade]

Strictly speaking, there's not really a ban, they just require a permit to have them. However, few people outside of zoos and museums will be able to get such a permit, which has the same effect as a ban. This applies to ALL NON-NATIVE INSECTS, not just mantids, with very few exceptions (house crickets, mealworms, fruitflies etc.). There is no consideration as to whether or not the animal could establish itself here or whether or not it would become a pest if it did.

This includes, btw, nearly every cockroach species kept by hobbyists, but for whatever reason they are not enforcing it at the moment.

While I can understand blocking new species from entering the country on a "just in case" basis, many species are well established in the hobby and have been bred for years, if not decades, in this country by private enthusiasts. Common sense would indicate that if such species have not become pests yet, then there has to be very little risk. Many phasmids, for example, have been bred in the US since at least the 60's.

As far as non-native mantids harming the population of native species is concerned, this is highly unlikely as their cannibalistic tendancies prevent them from having very dense populations. The truth is, mantids are not really very effective pest control either, for the same reason. They just don't make much of a difference one way or the other.Neat bugs to have around, though.

Wade

 

[thisgal]

Someone said something about these intriguing little insects devouring everything, including their mates........

We've got them everywhere, every year. A couple years back, my dad was wandering around out front and he saw a mantis eating a hummingbird. I kid you not. We have pictures here somewhere... The poor bird got a hole the size of a pea eaten out of her chest!


But I'd hardly consider them pests, even if I did live in an area where they virtually eliminated other insects. I think the government spends too much time and money on trying to control mother nature.

 

[fantasticp]

The USDA also can't logically allow keepers in Oregon, for example, to keep a species that would become invasive if released in Florida, because there is no invisible barrier that keeps the bugs in Oregon if the keeper were to move across the country.

There are many animals legal in some states and not others, like Servals and other large cats. I don't see your point.

 

[Amanda]

Those are local laws though... not federal laws. If the USDA saw any threat in serval-keeping, they could put a federal ban on that too.

I agree that they need to carefully research species before throwing around blanket bans on things, but if something is potentially invasive, it absolutely should be banned. I live in Florida where we are all-but overrun with invasive plant and animal species, so I have very little sympathy when things like that get banned. No hobbiest *NEEDS* to keep an invasive bug. There are always a million other options to choose from.

The USDA needs alot more science and alot less bureaucracy, but I think they serve a very important purpose.

 

[Stylopidae]

Those are local laws though... not federal laws. If the USDA saw any threat in serval-keeping, they could put a federal ban on that too.

I agree that they need to carefully research species before throwing around blanket bans on things, but if something is potentially invasive, it absolutely should be banned. I live in Florida where we are all-but overrun with invasive plant and animal species, so I have very little sympathy when things like that get banned. No hobbiest *NEEDS* to keep an invasive bug. There are always a million other options to choose from.

The USDA needs alot more science and alot less bureaucracy, but I think they serve a very important purpose.

I think we agree with the principal, but my complaints come when they start labeling bugs as invasive despite mountians of evidence to the contrary.

Like I said in an earlier post (not in this thread) I partially agree with the ban on parthenogenic phasmids, but this is taking it a bit too far because it's obvious that no research has been done on the subject.

I didn't talk to the man who was mentioned earlier in the post, but I may try to track him down.

Looking back on the calls, I *think* they didn't know what they were doing since my first call was at a biolab up in Ames.

The contradiction in their policy still holds, though.

 

[Amanda]

I think we agree with the principal, but my complaints come when they start labeling bugs as invasive despite mountians of evidence to the contrary.

Like I said in an earlier post (not in this thread) I partially agree with the ban on parthenogenic phasmids, but this is taking it a bit too far because it's obvious that no research has been done on the subject.

I didn't talk to the man who was mentioned earlier in the post, but I may try to track him down.

Looking back on the calls, I *think* they didn't know what they were doing since my first call was at a biolab up in Ames.

The contradiction in their policy still holds, though.

Agreed.

 

[Drachenjager]

hmm i believe it was the very same organization that imported the fire ants to combat another pest wasnt it? Dumb Dumb Dumb. Who ever it was that thought that was a good idea should be drawn and quartered or fed to the fire ants
I hate fire ants.......