brown recluse deaths

[Kaimetsu]

Did they have the spider that bit him and was it identified by an arachnologist?

 

[pitbulllady]

My aunts father died from a brown recluse bite on the neck that went untreated....ill link to the obituariy when i can find it His name was john stuart though

Livia, unless the spider that actually bit your aunt's father was caught at the time that it bit him, AND identified by an arachnologist or entomologist, there is absolutely NO. WAY. that his death can be accurately pinned on a spider! We have repeated it ad nauseum, but some folks still don't get the message, that doctors are NO more qualified to diagnose a "spider bite" or ID a spider, which in most cases they have not seen, than I am qualified to diagnose cancer or perform a heart cath on someone. WAAY too often, doctors misdiagnose every skin sore or lesion that shows up in their clinic as a "spider bite" and fail to pinpoint the real cause, and unfortunately that not only reinforces that myth of deadly spiders, but leads to people actually dying from treatable conditions like MRSA, which go unchecked until they reach that point of no return. Doctors are also prone to blaming a spider when there was a serious underlying illness already present that had nothing to do with a spider, such as liver failure from a lifetime of hard drinking and drug use, the old " well, we know he drank like a fish and his liver was toast already, but he got bit by a 'Brown Recluse' months ago, so it had to have the spider that killed him" card played. Spiders make even more convenient scapegoats than snakes because people can always claim that they never saw the spider but it just HAD to have been one.

pitbulllady

 

[The Snark]

Livia, unless the spider that actually bit your aunt's father was caught at the time that it bit him, AND identified by an arachnologist or entomologist, there is absolutely NO. WAY. that his death can be accurately pinned on a spider! We have repeated it ad nauseum, but some folks still don't get the message, that doctors are NO more qualified to diagnose a "spider bite" or ID a spider, which in most cases they have not seen, than I am qualified to diagnose cancer or perform a heart cath on someone. WAAY too often, doctors misdiagnose every skin sore or lesion that shows up in their clinic as a "spider bite" and fail to pinpoint the real cause, and unfortunately that not only reinforces that myth of deadly spiders, but leads to people actually dying from treatable conditions like MRSA, which go unchecked until they reach that point of no return. Doctors are also prone to blaming a spider when there was a serious underlying illness already present that had nothing to do with a spider, such as liver failure from a lifetime of hard drinking and drug use, the old " well, we know he drank like a fish and his liver was toast already, but he got bit by a 'Brown Recluse' months ago, so it had to have the spider that killed him" card played. Spiders make even more convenient scapegoats than snakes because people can always claim that they never saw the spider but it just HAD to have been one.

pitbulllady

This is actually extremely ironic. Go to a family doc you will almost certainly end up getting referred to a specialist. Er docs automatically refer. But when it comes to a spider bite, a completely different discipline, they tend to turn into experts!

 

[kp513]

Let's clarify something. The effects of the venom of the Brown Recluse has never directly caused a death. Loxoscelism necrosis can lead to death without proper treatment.

So to give an analogy. You stand out in an open field during a lightning storm holding a 20 foot metal rod over your head. When the lightning does strike, are you going to blame the 20 foot metal rod? The rod did not cause the electrocution. All it did was facilitate the electrons as an open necrotic wound facilitates, exacerbates, bacteria and devascularization. The venom of the Loxosceles does not possess any toxins that directly or indirectly cause oxygen loss to the brain (clinical death) or non reversable brain damage (biological death).

Compare to real life threatening venoms. Latrodectus: can cause acute cardiac dysfunction resulting in loss of blood flow to the brain. Most neurotoxins operate in this manner. Rattlesnake bite. A combination of neurotoxins and hematotoxins that essentially turn the blood into a poison. Respiratory arrest occurs, the blood isn't oxygenated, and brain death results.

Or to give a very specific analogy. AIDS has never caused a single death. It compromises a bodily function, the immune system, but by itself can not cause clinical or biological death. The commonest cause of death with a person that has AIDS is Tuberculosis. TB is a very common bacteria most people have. The immune system keeps it in check. When it goes out of control it destroys the lungs. The blood isn't oxygenated and brain death results.

I wanted to add some correction to this, based on my own literature search. By and large this is correct, as the effects of Loxosceles are rarely significant, and when they are, they tend to involve dermonecrosis. However, when death occurs (at least according to most papers I've seen), it occurs due to systemic hemolysis (the bursting of red blood cells). In these cases, the primary agents in Sicarrid species' venom, spingomyelinase proteins (also the primary dermonecrotic agent) hijack the body's complement immune system. A cascade of enzymes and facilitating proteins eventually creates a membrane attack complex, creating a pore in the blood cell, killing it. For both Loxosceles and Sicarius species, this is the suspected method of human fatality, and is thus a direct causative agent of biological death.

These are the papers from which most of my info has come, but feel free to corroborate or dispute it if you've seen a more recent or contradictory study. http://www.jimmunol.org/content/155/9/4459.short http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X98994748

 

[The Snark]

Thanks very much for the info, kp513.
So we do have two proven mechanisms that can cause death from Loxoscelism: Haemolysis and rhabdomyolysis. Unfortunately the exact specifics as an LD50 are lacking and the life threatening degree of envenomation, threshold, is entirely unknown and most likely would vary from patient to patient as venom profusion varies drastically and the actual cause of death would most often be renal failure followed by hepatic and on down the organ chain.
Unfortunately this dials modern medicine right back to it's dark ages with amputation being the most reliable remedy.