brown recluse deaths

[klawfran3]

people are arguing with me how they have friends that have died from a brown recluse bite. I know that no one has ever died from one, but does anyone have the source of that information or a link to it. i am in need. thanks.

 

[kp513]

The indications here (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200505123521922) are that children may have been killed; at the very least, the authors do not refute Wasserman's assertions in the second paragraph of their reply. However, it is clearly statistically unlikely that those you know had a friend die based on the low incidence of such a severe reaction.

 

[klawfran3]

thank you very much!

 

[The Snark]

Let's clarify something. The effects of the venom of the Brown Recluse has never directly caused a death. Loxoscelism necrosis can lead to death without proper treatment.

So to give an analogy. You stand out in an open field during a lightning storm holding a 20 foot metal rod over your head. When the lightning does strike, are you going to blame the 20 foot metal rod? The rod did not cause the electrocution. All it did was facilitate the electrons as an open necrotic wound facilitates, exacerbates, bacteria and devascularization. The venom of the Loxosceles does not possess any toxins that directly or indirectly cause oxygen loss to the brain (clinical death) or non reversable brain damage (biological death).

Compare to real life threatening venoms. Latrodectus: can cause acute cardiac dysfunction resulting in loss of blood flow to the brain. Most neurotoxins operate in this manner. Rattlesnake bite. A combination of neurotoxins and hematotoxins that essentially turn the blood into a poison. Respiratory arrest occurs, the blood isn't oxygenated, and brain death results.

Or to give a very specific analogy. AIDS has never caused a single death. It compromises a bodily function, the immune system, but by itself can not cause clinical or biological death. The commonest cause of death with a person that has AIDS is Tuberculosis. TB is a very common bacteria most people have. The immune system keeps it in check. When it goes out of control it destroys the lungs. The blood isn't oxygenated and brain death results.

 

[Beary Strange]

At the point in a "factual" conversation it is qualified with "a friend/of" (whose name they just happen to not remember and it always happened "a long time ago"), that is the point at which I roll my eyes. Especially if the topic is spiders. Even more especially if it's a normie trying to school ME on spider facts.

 

[klawfran3]

At the point in a "factual" conversation it is qualified with "a friend/of" (whose name they just happen to not remember and it always happened "a long time ago"), that is the point at which I roll my eyes. Especially if the topic is spiders. Even more especially if it's a normie trying to school ME on spider facts.

The person I was arguing against said almost those exact words. Made me wanna scream.

 

[The Snark]

The person I was arguing against said almost those exact words. Made me wanna scream.

Why not? Let loose with a primal scream right in their face, throw your arms in the air then stagger off as if looking for something to snack your head against. Worth a try?

 

[MrCrackerpants]

Why not? Let loose with a primal scream right in their face, throw your arms in the air then stagger off as if looking for something to snack your head against. Worth a try?

lol :biggrin:

 

[pitbulllady]

Death certificates and COD's are of public record and can easily be accessed. Next time someone tells you that they had a friend who died of a Brown Recluse bite, just ask them for the friend's name and the medical facility in which they expired or in which the autopsy was performed. Better yet, whip out your smart phone or tablet with internet capability and tell them you're going to look up and confirm it.

pitbulllady

 

[The Snark]

Death certificates and COD's are of public record and can easily be accessed. Next time someone tells you that they had a friend who died of a Brown Recluse bite, just ask them for the friend's name and the medical facility in which they expired or in which the autopsy was performed. Better yet, whip out your smart phone or tablet with internet capability and tell them you're going to look up and confirm it.

pitbulllady

Primal screams are more fun and therapeutic. Maybe do both? Actually that is a very good idea. Zap every fanciful tale. You could even add you are helping build a database and would like to document these incidents. (As Ernest Gann once succinctly put it, 'As if some great but yet unspoken Genie had once again unbuttoned his pants and urinated upon the pillars of science')

 

[klawfran3]

here's a little snippet from the conversation. this sentence makes me angry because of how wrong it is: "Anecdotal evidence do have a purpose, and they demonstrate the danger of BRS bites. You should do some googling about them."

just.... UGH.

 

[The Snark]

here's a little snippet from the conversation. this sentence makes me angry because of how wrong it is: "Anecdotal evidence do have a purpose, and they demonstrate the danger of BRS bites. You should do some googling about them."

just.... UGH.

The person who said that should do some Googling in regards to admissible evidence in a court of law. Good reading: http://skepdic.com/testimon.html

I'm taking that personally as when when I related how I got the royal shaft from a big name oil business their attorneys negated everything I had to state about the workplace conditions as being anecdotal. The judge concurred and told me I had to substantiate every detail with admissible documentation.

 

[Python]

One problem with trying to prove anything at all with regards to the internet is the astounding number of nitwits out there. Even on something as official as a death certificate. Especially considering the number of doctors who attribute 'bites' to recluses without ever having seen the spider. Newspapers love to propagate horror stories and bloggers all have a story to tell as well. Any and all of these sources constitutes unerring proof to the average Joe on the street. Arguing with that kind of ignorance makes my head hurt. I don't even engage in those sorts of conversations any more

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

 

[klawfran3]

One problem with trying to prove anything at all with regards to the internet is the astounding number of nitwits out there. Even on something as official as a death certificate. Especially considering the number of doctors who attribute 'bites' to recluses without ever having seen the spider. Newspapers love to propagate horror stories and bloggers all have a story to tell as well. Any and all of these sources constitutes unerring proof to the average Joe on the street. Arguing with that kind of ignorance makes my head hurt. I don't even engage in those sorts of conversations any more

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

it gets worse too though. the person said that ABC news was a credible source, and that I am wrong for providing peer reviewed articles. ABC news published two contradictory articles on recluses too. one said that three people died (or something like that) from their bites, while another said that nobody has died from the bites. which one is it, oh propaganda channel?

 

[The Snark]

By the way, while we are kicking the goat all over the landscape. A medical doctors diagnosis of ANYTHING is not proof positive. All MDs (with perhaps an exception or 2 like Michael Jackson's esteemed fizzishun) write reports of findings. Every procedure they do gets a report. In those reports they use two terminologies: Impression, and results. Impression or similar terms are what the doc basis further diagnostic procedures on. Results are what is returned by specific diagnostics.

IE, a doctor who states death by spider bite is a fool or has a clinical diagnosis from lab, x-ray, QME or the like. In the event of death no self respecting doc will ever put himself on the line unless the evidence is overwhelming. (Blown aneurism etc) Without the clinical findings or overwhelming evidence, it requires the Qualified Medical Examiner's post mortem findings to verify the PROBABLE cause of death. In the event of a suspected spider bite, you can bet your last penny the word probable will be in that report.

So if ABC of CNN or whoever blows some hot air, that is all it is without a QME's findings and always keep in mind, a QME can always be challenged by peers or a court.

So to make a long story short, no black and white. No positive absolute diagnosis when it comes to a bite, except in the very rarest of circumstances.

As for the geniuses who spout the crap to your face, just ask them if they were able to pass the Turing test without help.

 

[GSA8]

My favorite California quote is: "my friend in XYZ California City was bitten by a Brown Recluse..." It is at this point I refer to: http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html

The conversation typically then devolves to "Oh but I've seen one in my house." Or "I saw the scars from my friend's mom's wound."

I only mention the UCR study because the OP is a Californian...

 

[The Snark]

Upon reflection. This spider bite sensationalism, among others, is sick. Just propagating the stories borderlines on a psychosis if you look at it objectively. A legitimate mental derangement that clearly shows how skewed peoples thinking is.

Take me. As a paramed I've taken a little over 1,000 people to hospitals in my time. I'm about average in the calls I've responded to. The animal caused traumas were probably around 40. Horses followed by dogs making up most of those. No spider bites. 3 snake bites.

But go by sensationalism, why isn't the lions share, around 750 of my transports, cardiovascular disease, the major topic of discussion? Why aren't people horror struck at the thought of eating at fast food restaurants? Thousands of deaths each day. Billions of dollars spent on it every year, and a Brown Recluse gets the front page?


Just go by statistics. None of the people who read this post will have any significant spider bite. 2/3rds of you will die of 'heart attacks'. Clean the spiders out of your environment? Worry about the spiders in your arteries first, if you're a rational sentient being.

 

[klawfran3]

Well Snark, I assume that the reason that spiders are the more popular choice for propaganda about them it because we have no physical or mental way of relating to them. They are so vastly alien to us with their exoskeletons, sensory bristles, organ placement, eye structure, emotionless face and the like, that the average joe-shmoe can not even DREAM of sympathizing with one. I know that everyone on this forum, even me, loves, cares for, and is amazed by spiders and arthropods because of this, but the average public sees it completely opposite. They have no way of knowing anything about them other than from their looks, and lets face it: they can be very intimidating and creepy if you don't understand them. The average public is also not interested in learning about them, as they're only interested in TV and celebrities and other mind numbing garbage. The only exposure they get to spiders and insects are the news reports published by ABC and FOX about how some lady in who-knows-where-the-hell claims she was bitten by the worlds deadliest spider while she was gardening, only to be followed up by photos of people with their skin gouged out by the "spider." As this is their only exposure to spiders and "information" on them, 100% of their exposure was bad information, so how could they know any better. We know that all of it is untrue, and our exposure is basically all good, so we can figure out how wrong the news reports are by referencing to our knowledge. The average person can not do that. And such, they believe every single bad thing thrown their way and ignore the good information because it fits with their mental image on how spiders are the scourge of man kind. That's why they are so hard to argue with, because nobody wants to be told they're wrong. What makes things worse is that now with the internet, everyone has a voice. Now every person who wants to say something on the subject can say it. What this means to us is that there are more spider haters than spider lovers, and according to society: if everyone knows or likes it it must be good/true. So now we have the entirety of the internet using public pulling up false articles and BS information from their most trusted sources (ABC and FOX), and since everyone agrees that that is true, that means it HAS to be true, not the peer reviewed, highly researched articles that we can pull up.

we're fighting a losing battle because the average person is too lazy to do research.

 

[LythSalicaria]

Even the Wikipedia article on the species states that it's relatively rare for the bite to be medically significant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_recluse_spider#Bite

This article might be relevant to your argument. It covers sensationalism over spider bites and misdiagnoses as well as argues about the distribution of the species. http://www.cfp.ca/content/50/8/1098.full.pdf

...also, slightly off topic, but I posted what I thought was an accurate bite report on this species, only to find out that they haven't made it to Canada. Mea cupla, I'm always learning. Now I'm off to edit said bite report before anyone else reads it. ::

 

[RzezniksRunAway]

This chart is also helpful:




LOL. =)