Brazilian species ban including common hobby species?

[tarantula kat]

If they do start confiscating slings, they'll have so many of them they won't be able to accomplish anything other than making sure they're all fed and watered. It works be nice though, if TKC waited for an actual statement issued by the agency as whole rather than one email by someone. I work for a government commission, and my boss would have my ass if I issued a statement like this.

I will admit that I am not 100% certain that the email was not sent by an official spokesperson or something. I could be mistaken.

But they have been confiscating slings at the boarder, from multiple legal importers. As for hobbiests, as far as I've been told, that's not who they are after or will target. It's more the importers/vendors that are of concern.

If it does help, they have listed the actual USF&W officers in the past that they been speaking with, I'm sure you or anyone wanting more info could contact them. I can try to dig them up for you if so

 

[The Grym Reaper]

As far as I'm aware, T. seladonia were never legally exported nor was permission ever granted for them to be exported, any common hobby species will have probably been legally exported at some point or other and won't be subject to the Act.

 

[lazarus]

any common hobby species will have probably been legally exported at some point or other and won't be subject to the Act.

Brazilian authorities claim there were no exports for commercial purpose, which means that all Ts endemic to Brazil (not found in any other country) that are now well established in the hobby (LP, A. geniculata, N. chromatus, P. sazimai etc.) were at some point smuggled and therefore any specimen in the hobby is illegal.

 

[RP91]

Some troubling news for some Brazilian species, if not all? Not sure if I'm allowed to link this but will do, and correct me if I am wrong in doing so. Also, let me know if there is already a post about this.

http://www.thetkc.org/usfws-statement-regarding-contraband/

"Although unable to provide a list, the FWS did agree to officially confirm specific common pet species as “contraband” when specifically asked. Expressly confirmed contraband species were: Bumba cabocla, Acanthoscurria geniculata, Grammastola pulchra, Typhochlaena seladonia, and Cyriocosmus ritae."

 

[nicodimus22]

Can you imagine being a breeder that has hundreds or thousands of slings of one of those species that you now have no way to move? Sucks to be them right now.

 

[Patherophis]

First rule of creating new thread is checking if it doesnt exist already ...
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/brazilian-species-ban-including-common-hobby-species.317569/

 

[RP91]

First rule of creating new thread is checking if it doesnt exist already ...
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/brazilian-species-ban-including-common-hobby-species.317569/

Dang it! I did try to search but I guess I couldn't get the keyword string right. This can be closed then if a mod wants to.

 

[Campi95]

To be 100% honest, FWS is the one that has screwed us all up. It’s miserable. They’ve been unable to give us a straight answer on this no matter what we try.

Everyone is operating under incomplete evidence. I’ve seen the messages sent from Bob Herndon to Cody Wilson explicitly saying that yes, the Brazilian ban is real. I’ve seen the screenshots of the conversation with the FWS contact officer. Does that give me a 100% clear cut interpretation of the law, no it doesn’t.

On the other hand I’ve seen no evidence Against the ban. In fact, I got booted (along with several other keepers) when I tried to ask some of these “other groups” what they were basing their decision on.

I frankly find the whole “let’s not trust TKC because they may be fabricating evidence” thing laughable. What on earth would be the incentive to pretend that there’s a Brazilian Ban? And is Bob Herndon thus lying?

The screenshots I saw encourage owners of the current Brazilian species to not dispose/surrender their specimens and to continue caring for them. That to me makes sense, because FWS does not have the time nor resources to start banging on the doors of everyone who bought a Nhandu. I am still concerned about the fact that they are asking us to be responsible for proving our own innocence, as that seems to fly in the face of due process. But until that gets figured out, and based on the limited information I have at my disposal, it seems irresponsible to assume it’ll all be fine and continue trading them.

 

[EtienneN]

People will be buying Ts on the Dark Web, though I'm sure a lot of that goes on already.

 

[Liquifin]

So Brazil and Trump made this scheme in order to pay for the wall and prevent the government shutdown

Okay bad jokes aside,
From my understanding in TL;DR terms: Basically the U.S. don't want anything to do with T.'s anymore because Brazil is complaining about smuggled T.'s from ages ago, besides the T. seladonia that was recent. And to follow up, they believe that stopping the selling/transaction of these endemic Brazillian T.'s will save the species? Well then... Good luck getting the thousands of LP slings back from each individual. But honestly it's too confusing, most of the times, stuff like this is not fully explained in detail. Which every single T. hobbyist just scratch their heads and get confused at the end of the day.

Brazil is a hilarious oxymoron (no offense).
Brazil: Let's get all the T. seladonia back from the U.S.A. "YEA!!!!!" (crowd in the background)
U.S.A: Fine, fine, you win. Here you go. All the T. seladonia that you don't actually care about... (takes a knee to Brazil)
Brazil: Since we got them back. Lets cut down our trees that they live on to construct our own agendas "HUH?...." (Crowd in confusion)


That's how I see Brazil in the future once they get all there T.'s or whatnot back. As a matter of fact, they're cutting those trees they live on right now (Tree Cutter in Brazil "SNEEZES")

 

[NYAN]

Good luck getting the thousands of LP slings back from each individual.

This would be an an amazing way to protest it. We should all breed this species like crazy and then drop it off in the laps of the people who are proposing this. “Oh, no, every one of these 18 LP sacs is illegal. Well, best to be a law abiding citizen and give the spiderlings to USF&W.”

 

[TreebeardGoddess]

On the good chance that I'm completely misunderstanding this...
Is the TKC saying that the USFW is releasing a new ruling or policy decision? I would think something that effects so many popular pet species would be posted publicly somewhere, with referenced statutes/regulations?

 

[CommanderBacon]

I regret having posted this link XD

While I would like clear details on exactly what we can and can’t have as much as the next guy, pushing potentially uninformed contacts at USFWL for specific details before the organization has had an opportunity to complete their own investigation into the matter, determine next steps, and issue a formal statement seems imprudent.

I'm going to be patient and wait, even though patience is not my strong suit. I like planning, but I hate to speculate.

 

[Liquifin]

On the good chance that I'm completely misunderstanding this...
Is the TKC saying that the USFW is releasing a new ruling or policy decision? I would think something that effects so many popular pet species would be posted publicly somewhere, with referenced statutes/regulations?

Well. TBH, no one knows completely 100%. We only know from what was around previously like the Lacey Act and what not. But ironically, everyone is still scratching there heads clean. Because while we do know the gist of it. The government was always terrible of giving simpler/understanding for everyone else.

So if you're asking for an answer. No one knows the true answer, we only know so much. Because everyone on this forums is as confused and uncertain as you are. If someone understands this law completely then they must either work with this government/law/issue or they are a master at reading documents like a black belt walking to top of Mt. Everest barefoot. But if someone knows completely 100%, then step forward and tackle the explanations in terms which we can understand.

 

[Theneil]

i am not a lawyer or an expert, but it seems pretty clear cut to me, and it has since the selidonia debacle.

If the natural range of the animal does not extend outside the borders of Brazil, the owning, buying, etc. is illegal. that seems pretty clean cut.

Additionally, if the lineage cam from brazil (or was illegally removed from any country) then its entire lineage is illegal. Interpretation of this one seems clear cut as well, though perhaps impossible to prove one way or the other.

Also perhaps i missed it in the article, but i did not see any thing in the screenshots of the conversation that said to continue caring for them. So i believe that is a personal though from the author of the article.

Illegal is illegal. A lack of enforcement of a law doesn't make breaking that law legal.... (like i said i'm not a lawyer, i could possibly be wrong)

 

[korg]

Kind of funny to contrast the responses here with the responses in that thread on B. simoroxigorum the other day. I guess smuggling is no concern at all if it happened in the past and you now have the species, but it's terrible if it's happening in the present day and you don't have the species? Like I said in that other thread, very unfortunately our beloved hobby is partially built on a foundation of smuggling/illegal collecting (because of the financial incentives to skirt the rules) and we should all keep that in mind to help maintain a logistically consistent position on these questions.

 

[Justin H]

Kind of funny to contrast the responses here with the responses in that thread on B. simoroxigorum the other day. I guess smuggling is no concern at all if it happened in the past and you now have the species, but it's terrible if it's happening in the present day and you don't have the species?

I've been very tempted to post, but I don't want to give any validation to this source. The most annoying thing is that they posted it with the subtext "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE" as if it's a press statement. All they did was sensationalize some emails; it's intentionally misleading to get people riled up.

Like I said in that other thread, very unfortunately our beloved hobby is partially built on a foundation of smuggling/illegal collecting (because of the financial incentives to skirt the rules) and we should all keep that in mind to help maintain a logistically consistent position on these questions.

I agree... the unfortunate reality is that the hobby is split on this issue. A lot of people either don't know or don't care that they're supporting the illegal wildlife trade. I hope that we can look back one day and acknowledge that this hobby is in a dark place.

There's a case to be made for the continuation of breeding illegally imported species, but that area is entirely grey until we have some more official information.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

But they have been confiscating slings at the boarder, from multiple legal importers. As for hobbiests, as far as I've been told, that's not who they are after or will target. It's more the importers/vendors that are of concern.

If it does help, they have listed the actual USF&W officers in the past that they been speaking with, I'm sure you or anyone wanting more info could contact them. I can try to dig them up for you if so

If the USFW service is confiscating spiderlings at the border, then importers are not following the law. What I find interesting is that, again, wildlife laws such as CITES, ESA, and the Lacey Act are not new. Apparently, the wildlife laws have been ignored or overlooked by wildlife officials in the USA as well as the importers for some reason. Every year it seems, the tarantula keeping hobby is getting more and more popular and there are more and more Facebook pages and YouTubers which is generating more press. Such press seems to have finally caught the attention of wildlife authorities who are now taking a closer look at spiders coming in and out of the country for the pet trade.

From my perspective, the tarantula keeping community shined the spotlight on itself and now more scrutiny has to be made by importers, wholesalers, and retailers in the USA to determine where the source animals for captive bred spiderlings came from so laws like the Lacey Act are not violated. I agree with the statement that those who are buying tarantulas retail, or the consumer, won't be affected by any crack down on illegally imported tarantulas and that the attention is on the importers. The number of species available in the USA might decline or the cost to the consumer might dramatically increase, but the casual pet keeper won't have to worry about the tarantulas already in their collections.

 

[Johjie]

I've been very tempted to post, but I don't want to give any validation to this source. The most annoying thing is that they posted it with the subtext "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE" as if it's a press statement. All they did was sensationalize some emails; it's intentionally misleading to get people riled up.

I agree... the unfortunate reality is that the hobby is split on this issue. A lot of people either don't know or don't care that they're supporting the illegal wildlife trade. I hope that we can look back one day and acknowledge that this hobby is in a dark place.

There's a case to be made for the continuation of breeding illegally imported species, but that area is entirely grey until we have some more official information.

Everyone here has had a lot of good points/questions. @Justin H , I am a bit riled just because this group is supposed to be at an expo in my area soon so their list could have an immediate impact on what is and is not available in my community. If that list happens to include a bunch of species endemic to multiple countries, like the C. Ritae, that would really suck.

My question is, who is actually going to end up policing the issue? I really don't think the USFWS will ever announce any intentions of seizing the contraband species except upon importation. I do think they might (publicly) release an official statement concerning the ownership issue absent an official list. The USFWS really doesn't have to make a statement though. They're not obligated to reiterate the text of Lacey Act with regard to tarantulas. The fact is, no one is changing that law. The only time it was ever amended was to widen its scope, not limit it. It's an international relations issue and no matter what anyone in the hobby says about conservation, the Lacey Act isn't going anywhere or being amended for some spiders.

I am interested to see what work the TKC will publish in the future about trying to enact policy change. I'm even more interested to see who in the hobby is going to kowtow to their "contraband list". I guess we can expect all Brazilian species to be on their list but I am curious what their research on other countries will yield. There's bound to be more species common to the hobby added.

Also, @CommanderBacon you're so right, their font hurts my eyes to read!

 

[Liquifin]

the tarantula keeping community shined the spotlight on itself

This was actually to be expected by most people. As most newcomers here were introduced by internet.

The number of species available in the USA might decline or the cost to the consumer might dramatically increase, but the casual pet keeper won't have to worry about the tarantulas already in their collections.

This is already happening with the pokie restriction. Boy oh Boy, what's sad is that the U.S. T. hobby is even going to me more struggling in the future. I bet at some point, everyone in the U.S. is going to have to buy a license or permit to own a T. .

In conclusion, i'm mad beyond rage mode

Are the EU and UK affected to? Yes or No?