Brazilian species ban including common hobby species?

[CommanderBacon]

My friend just sent me this, which was posted today:
http://www.thetkc.org/usfws-statement-regarding-contraband/

The T. seladonia I knew about, but the others are surprising to me. Bumba cabocla, Acanthoscurria geniculata, Grammastola pulchra, and Cyriocosmus ritae cannot be bred or traded?

Dude. Those are common af. I'm curious how this is going to shake out.

Edit: Looks like there's a lot of unverifiable and some flat out inaccurate information on the TKC page, so the other T groups I'm in are encouraging keepers to take this with several grains of salt and wait for official statements from USFWS regarding the legality of keeping any Brazilian endemic species. Sorry, I panicked!

 

[chanda]

For the very common species that have been in the hobby for absolutely ages, it will be practically impossible to enforce any sort of retroactive ban. They are here. They are widespread. They are in thousands of homes and pet shops across the country, and are popping out egg sacs and hatchlings all the time. And frankly, the average USFWS agent probably wouldn't be able to tell them apart from a great many other tarantula species, anyway.

It's all well and good for them to say that we can't have those species - but what do they expect us to do with the ones that are already here? Ship them all back to Brazil? Kill them? Drop them all off at our nearest USFWS office?

There is no practical way to enforce - or comply with - such a ban. At most, they might be able to prohibit sales of those species, which would, in turn, reduce the interest people had in breeding them, if they were suddenly faced with the prospect of having to keep hundreds of slings.

 

[CommanderBacon]

@chanda The statement says to keep them at this time, but to not sell or trade them. Earlier, it also mentions breeding.

Man, I have all of those in my collection and was hoping to buy a C. ritae in the next month. Now I feel like a criminal!

 

[StampFan]

My friend just sent me this, which was posted today:
http://www.thetkc.org/usfws-statement-regarding-contraband/

The T. seladonia I knew about, but the others are surprising to me. Bumba cabocla, Acanthoscurria geniculata, Grammastola pulchra, and Cyriocosmus ritae cannot be bred or traded?

Dude. Those are common af. I'm curious how this is going to shake out.

I never believe random sites that I have never heard of posting anonymous letters from unconfirmed sources.

 

[The Seraph]

@chanda The statement says to keep them at this time, but to not sell or trade them. Earlier, it also mentions breeding.

Man, I have all of those in my collection and was hoping to buy a C. ritae in the next month. Now I feel like a criminal!

Think of it like this: the government has many other problems, such as diplomacy with foreign nations, managing internal affairs, passing laws, etc etc. They are not going to break down your door to take a few spiders. They have other concerns. If it makes you that uncomfortable, than don't do it. It is your choice.

 

[CommanderBacon]

@StampFan I've heard of it before. It just has a terrible font, so I don't read it, usually.
@The Seraph I was a law-abiding citizen afaik, so I'll just hold onto my kids until I know what's up. It's just alarming how removed the hobby *feels* from any smuggling actually happening*, especially with how common most of these species are. I just like spiders!

*Edited for clarity.

 

[DinoGlasses]

"The FWS was asked to provide a list of species to which breeders and consumers could refer to remain lawful. In response, the FWS emphasized that it is the individual breeder and keeper’s responsibility to research the lineage of their own specimens to ensure it is not in violation of the Lacey Act."

I feel like this is an incredibly vague statement? How can this law properly be enforced if it's up to the breeders to provide all the information? :/ Also, I find it a bit dodgy that they couldn't provide a proper list... ?

(I'm curious about this article too, though. I saw it posted elsewhere and came to AB to find more info.)

 

[EtienneN]

It really does appear unenforcable. I know breeders in my area are disregarding the entire thing because I bought my new G. pulchra in November and there were two tables selling them at the local expo. Bureaucracy likes to make things murky, but people are people and do what they want regardless. Bottom line, no-one is going to go door-to-door and confiscate people's tarantulas. It's just no new WC bloodlines/stock will be imported for awhile.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

I never believe random sites that I have never heard of posting anonymous letters from unconfirmed sources.

My thoughts exactly! I never heard of this Tarantula Keeper Coalition and they are certainly no authority on anything and they certainly don’t represent me or my interests with tarantulas.

Besides, the Lacey Act is not new so they haven’t provided any information that can’t be obtained from the USFW web site.

 

[lostbrane]

TKC I believe was started by people involved with Palp Friction.

Also, I didn’t see any confirmation from FWS in that email stating that the species (except T. seladonia from what I know of, which could not be up to date/incomplete) they asked about are indeed in violation of the Lacey Act. FWS seemingly skirted probably because they don’t know themselves which ones Brazil is going to claim or not. FWS just said that if they were illegally collected/smuggled out it would be in violation. A lot of us are already aware of that...

 

[CommanderBacon]

Yes. I was surprised to see such common species listed. Drama!

 

[chanda]

It really does appear unenforcable. I know breeders in my area are disregarding the entire thing because I bought my new G. pulchra in November and there were two tables selling them at the local expo. Bureaucracy likes to make things murky, but people are people and do what they want regardless. Bottom line, no-one is going to go door-to-door and confiscate people's tarantulas. It's just no new WC bloodlines/stock will be imported for awhile.

There are a number of vendors who just don't care whether something is legal or not - or don't think they'll get caught. You can frequently find things offered for sale at the local expos that are not exactly sanctioned. I have seen prickly stick insects (Extatosoma tiaratum) available for sale at several expos over the past few years - including the one I just attended in January - along with other prohibited critters.

When it comes to long-established hobby species, I find it hard to imagine that the US government agencies can't find better things to do than to prosecute hobbyists and local breeders for continuing to keep and breed their existing animals - and cracking down on them would not do anything to help the Brazilian species in their native range. It's not like the Brazilian government is asking to have their lost spiders (and the multitudinous descendents of those spiders) repatriated.

Sure, it makes sense to ban export/import of new wild-caught spiders from Brazil - and that is something that can actually be enforced - but it really seems like all the specimens already in the hobby trade should be grandfathered in at this point.

 

[lazarus]

They pretend to represent the T community yet they can't spell Grammostola correctly

 

[Sarkhan42]

"the FWS emphasized that it is the individual breeder and keeper’s responsibility to research the lineage of their own specimens to ensure it is not in violation of the Lacey Act."

The assertion that one could even have documentation for the parents, grandparents, etc, of the specimen to "provide proof" that their specimen (for species that have been in the hobby for decades) is not illegally collected is asinine in itself. If this is in fact confirmed by USFW to be an accurate representation of their ruling, its nothing more than a money grub for funding. What in the case that someone gives up their Ts on craigslist etc? People who are left Tarantulas through wills, or through abandonment? I work at a USDA permitted facility that as is has been asked to take on specimens confiscated at the border, because 200+ spiders have nowhere to go. Do they expect zoos etc to just take hundreds surrendered animals? With the struggle we already have to maintain ourselves on paper thin budgets? What about all those breeders out there with hundreds of now "illegal" slings? Should they be euthanized? The whole thing to me screams unqualified representative making a statement they had no right to make, as this makes no logistical sense with how ingrained in the hobby species like A. geniculata and Lasiodora parahybana are.

I hope more information is provided ASAP. Someone higher up has some clarifications to make.

 

[TarantulAddict]

Not to mention the people that run this coalition knowingly spread photoshopped images constantly. So no knowing how much of this is even real.

 

[tarantula kat]

I don't believe that USF&W are planning to go after individual keepers, but what's scary is that they could if they decided to enforce the Lacey act. Therefore, out of precaution, TKC have been advised by a lawyer to stop selling them and in turn, TKC have suggested other vendors follow suit.

Whether people want to believe this is legit or not their call, because there is no clear answer here, but fact of the matter is it's no doubt that endemic Brazilian species have been seized on import, more than once, more than twice.

Here is an article about an unrelated vendor having their LP import confiscated and donated to a zoo:

https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/S...KSKt3FY7SR4Noc_64jlksBUdRrsk8Arfer_7bLD114Aeo

So I would exercise caution until we know more facts

edit: you can "disagree" but that doesn't change the fact that this is happening. I know it's not what any of us want to hear but pretending nothing is going on will not help stop it from happening

 

[SpiderLaw]

"The whole thing to me screams unqualified representative making a statement they had no right to make,"

Reading through this mess for the umpteenth time today I can't help but notice that it is lacking language I would expect to find in a statement like this that had ever been reviewed by a legal professional. It makes me question the position taken.

 

[8leggedRN]

I've been wondering about this off and on all day since I saw it in Facebook. Logistically, enforcing this Lacey act would be just about impossible, especially in regard to G. pulchra and A. geniculata. USFWS lacks the manpower to run around citing every single pet store or breeder that has breeding pairs. I think from now on they'll simply look at any imports, not what's currently here. The groups on Facebook seem to be reacting very strongly right now, over an email, not an official statement.

I feel like as a hobby, we have done a lot to ensure that some more rare and endangered species are kept safe under our care. I also think that brown bagging has something to do with this as well. I'm just musing on that point though. Give it some time, and I think this will die down.

*As far as importing goes, while I'm not a breeder, I don't think I would be doing that at all. If it were me, I'd just use CB specimens born and raised in the states. For newly identified species, I'd make sure that every I was dotted and every T crossed if I wanted to import, and from a real reputable importer. Even then, I'd be uncertain of it. That's just my two cents.

*edited to talk about importing.

 

[tarantula kat]

*As far as importing goes, while I'm not a breeder, I don't think I would be doing that at all. If it were me, I'd just use CB specimens born and raised in the states. For newly identified species, I'd make sure that every I was dotted and every T crossed if I wanted to import, and from a real reputable importer. Even then, I'd be uncertain of it. That's just my two cents.

The issue is, USF&W are saying offspring of an "illegal" spider is still an illegal spider, even if it was born here.

I think the reason why some people doubt or bash the TKC is because fish and wildlife have been so incredibly messy and wishy washy about it all, therefore it's hard to interpret. The other issue is, USF&W don't seem to agree on it as an organization, so you get different answers depending on what officer you ask.

But there is definitely something going on, and honestly it's good to have an organization seeking legal help to nip it in the bud/butt? which is it? idk ..

 

[8leggedRN]

The issue is, USF&W are saying offspring of an "illegal" spider is still an illegal spider, even if it was born here.

I think the reason why some people doubt or bash the TKC is because fish and wildlife have been so incredibly messy and wishy washy about it all, therefore it's hard to interpret. The other issue is, USF&W don't seem to agree on it as an organization, so you get different answers depending on what officer you ask.

But there is definitely something going on, and honestly it's good to have an organization seeking legal help to nip it in the bud/butt? which is it? idk ..

I agree with you. I've heard about the wishy washy side of USFWS, and it's nice that there is an organization trying to protect foreign flora/ fauna interests. I just think they'll focus their efforts on stopping any further questionable or illegal importing. If they do start confiscating slings, they'll have so many of them they won't be able to accomplish anything other than making sure they're all fed and watered. It works be nice though, if TKC waited for an actual statement issued by the agency as whole rather than one email by someone. I work for a government commission, and my boss would have my ass if I issued a statement like this.

I will admit that I am not 100% certain that the email was not sent by an official spokesperson or something. I could be mistaken.